Can you help a friend of mine?

She's been a SAHM for about 13 yrs. Her oldest child will turn 16 this summer. Her other children are 14 and 10.

However, her DH thinks that they'd be living the Life of Riley if only she went back to work. He and his family frequently put pressure on her.

She had a secretarial job before staying home, so she doesn't feel that she's highly marketable.

Give me ideas that she can use to convince her DH it would be a bad move.

I've already told her a bit. But some of you in the trenches might have a lot to say. I sure hope so.

Tell her dh, that most teen pregnancies are conceived after school, in the home, before the parents get home at 5 pm. (or on lunch hour)

And that those are the hours that a lot of kids experiment with alcohol and drugs.

I have a friend whose daughter conceived a baby at the ripe old age of 14 on a nooner!

Both sets of parents thought nothing was wrong with the boy bringing her home ("with friends????") to his house by the school for lunch hour. After all they trusted the kids, and they brought friends with them.

Nine months later, she produced the result! At the ripe old age of just turned 15 a week or so before delivery, she was a mama, and my friend was in for a real ride. The girl kept the baby and guess who got to worry and plan and struggle to help her be a mum!

Kids in their teens need a watchful if grumpy eye of a concerned parent. They are still too young to make good choices about sex, drugs and their choice of friends sometimes needs a little feedback too.

If your friend's dh wants the best chance (and I'm not saying that lots of good kids turned out fine with working mums or that plenty of little so and so's did stuff behind their SAHM mother's backs)

but I mean the best statistical chance of bringing that kid safely thru the early independance years-- the teenage troubles

then for heavens sake don't ignore the one factor he can have and that is the mother, at home, paying attention to who goes where, and when, and forcing a little accountability into the often flighty teenage psyche!!!!

And if he still wants a trial period of the wife working, then maybe she should use some of the tools in her arsenal.

Buying takeout and conveniance foods, jacking up the price of groceries.

Buy a lot of good quality working clothes for the wardrobe.

Get a cleaning lady once a week because she can't possibly do both (even if she can, this is not the time for her to be the family sacrifice on the martyr altar!)

Oh and "INVEST" in herself by taking a nice expensive upgrade, during which she will need all of the above to keep herself ready for work.

Buy another car for her to reliably get to work.

If he can pony up all that dough, then yes, she is READY for work!!!!!

Make sure he doesn't think of it as "free money" that he can just access by shoving the little woman out the door into a job so he can enjoy a little free breathing room in the budget.

Let him know the REAL costs in any subtle or not so subtle ways that work with him.

(and the thoughts above about the teens too for sure!)

had another evil thought, she could go SHOPPING for that work wardrobe, and for her sake make sure she can take it all back the next day! But rack up a grand or two on shoes, purses, good work suits, blouses, hose and the right underthings to hold it all up and in so she looks nice and corporate!

Then show dh the bill!!!!!

heheheheheh

Then be ready to take it all back and shop more carefully if he still figures she needs to work outside the home too. After all if she is working her fingers to the bone, she doesn't need a lot of debt.

This is just for the shock and awe campaign if needed.

Wouldn't hurt to call Molly Maids for a price on a weekly cleaning, oh and price out dry cleaning all that nice work wear!!!!

If she is sensible about this and does it right, he should see that it will take at least 2 to 3 years of her working full time to pay off the debts incurred in working!!!!!

No gravy for the greedy!

Thanks, Margery. That is a wonderful start. I'm trying to get her to join our forums for more good, sensible advice.

Does anybody know how Alternative Minimum Tax would/could figure into this?

My friend already thinks that she'd be just barely breaking even if she went back to work, since her kids are homeschooled now... and, with their terrible public schools, she'd be sending them to private school if she went to work.

I told her that she should tell her DH she needs to go back to school and get a degree in order to be marketable. That means she'd be paying big bucks in tuition, as well as private school.

I also told her that her DH would have to help figure out what to do when the younger children are home sick. And daycare in summertime.

Other advice/ideas?

I told her that she should tell her DH she needs to go back to school and get a degree in order to be marketable. That means she'd be paying big bucks in tuition, as well as private school.

I also told her that her DH would have to help figure out what to do when the younger children are home sick. And daycare in summertime.



Heheheheheh, perfect!!!!!!!!!!! I always remember how much of a wake up call it was to my own dh, who had to do a LOT more when I worked. He much prefers me staying home.

Sometimes, men don't have a clue. Keeping the home up and running and caring for a family is a real, honest-to-goodness JOB, guys, and a very important one. I think Margery said it all--I'm just venting a little here.

I was tossing around the idea of going back to work because I was afraid we were about to have a hefty foundation repair bill that we just can't afford. Thankfully, that hasn't happened. First I considered applying at a local private school with a new campus. But the campus was far enough away that I don't think it would have been worth it. Then, I considered going back to teach in the public schools, but when I mentioned to DH that if I did that, he'd have to start doing laundry, some of the cleaning, running errands, etc., he didn't look happy. Mind you, I was the one considering going back to work; he wasn't telling me to. But, perhaps if your friends merely reminded her DH about the cost of private schools, the fact that he would now have to work when he gets home (helping to cook, clean, run errands, etc.), not to mention having to share time off when the kids are sick or have school holidays. He may finally realize that the extra paycheck would be sucked up in extra costs, and his time would greatly be affected, too. I honestly think that men sometimes don't realize how much effort is put into keeping the house.

We're doing this right now.
Dh seems to think all will be well if only I worked. I even sat down with him and did the numbers. We would still be $600 in the hole if I worked. He still didn't care. I guess his line of thinking is, if we're both miserable then it's fair.

I had my first day of work today in 6 years...had to leave my almost 14yo in charge (they are still on spring break) for 6 hours and drove 45 minutes ONE WAY to make $7/hour, so I'm not exactly unbiased right now :(

Another thought. Tax bracket. If she went back would that bump them up? To the point of just working to pay the tax? That is what happened to me! When I got a seasonal job.

I work full time out of the home days, my DH nights. Four children who are involved in sports, dance etc. I also do part time transcription at home. I think the more you make the more you spend. I also feel that it costs to work out of the home also. Many nights of eating out because I was running everyone around after work to make anything for supper, everytime I turn around at work there is another fund raiser for someone, gas, wear and tear on the vehicle.. I drive 30 miles round trip, buying lunch out, clothing, coffee, also I know many who pay a fortune for daycare. You have to way out everything. This is why I am looking to work from home so that I can cut out alot of the added expenses and be home with kids. I work in a school so I have almost all of the same days off as the kids and only work five weeks in the summer so it is pretty good that way. Nancy

You also have to remember that most husbands still expect dinner at 5 and the house to be in order. I still do all of the laundry and house cleaning. He wouldnt even think to do it. He will empty dishwasher which I am eternally grateful. THey also don't think about the children's needs as the moms do. I make sure my 7 year old has clothes laid out, breakfast, back pack packed, lunch etc.. So think before you jump into working full time. you also get used to the money and it is very hard to stop once you start. Nancy

Canadian Gardener's BACK! Woohoo!

I agree with all that is said. I just wanted to support you and your friend.
SInce the friend's family is NOT her and NOT doing her work for her- they should NOT be an influence to her decision.

The husband and wife team are really the only ones to make the decision. A woman's place is in the home. Taking care of a home is a Full Time 24 hour job. Unless there is an agreement that the home jobs are going to be divided amongst the team- it just isn't fair to expect one person in the team to take care of the home AND work outside the home.

I would recommend in addition to Margery's ideas... to complete a 'fake' income tax return based on your potential salary. See where you lie in the income taxes. Sometimes, working spouses pay is eaten up b/c of the tax bracket it now puts them into.

If hubby doesn't believe it, give her the names of the books to get at the library - on frugal living etc.. forgot all the names.. but you get the idea. There are also lots of websites with data that she can use as ammunition.

I think I would tell him that you buy a lot of "things" with the money that you would make but you could never buy back the time you would lose with the kids. There is no dress rehearsal in life and "things" are not as important as the time you give them.....Speaking from experience......

Is it possible she could work at home or start a home business?

OOps I meant that you (could) buy alot of things with the money you would make.... not that you do buy a lot of things.......yikes....that could have been taken wrong.......and for the record.....I only took off 21 days when I had both of my children and I've been sorry for it ever since and the oldest is 23 now. Stay home if at all possible, you won't regret it.

I agree with what Margery said. You could figure up how much more gas it will cost also, since two cars would be used. Then figure up how much more for private schooling. There's a lady at church who home schools her kids ( all 5 of them) She has them in music and each can play the piano, flute, trumphet and drums. They are also much more respectful. I wish I could have homeschooled mine. Once they go to the schools, I think they see allot of kids doing things that aren't good.
I wish you luck and hope he will have an open mind when you try to explain things to him.

Frugalfanny I wish I lived in your area. You always get such nice freebies. lol
I joined freecyle a few weeks back and haven't seen anything yet. But I had some things that someone could use.

Costs too much in alot of cases for both parents to work if they have children. Not much leftover money after paying for all that is involved in getting to work, childcare, taxes...and at what cost to your family? Price was too high for our family.
I've always stayed at home with my kids. I strongly feel that it is very important to have a parent at home for the kids and when they are older is no exception. I think teens left on their own for the most part get into more trouble than ones with a parent to keep an eye on things and those home fires burning. My kids recently thanked me for staying home, said they found alot of comfort in knowing I was there when other kids went home to empty houses and nobody to care for them when sick or just needing someone to talk to. They wondered how we could afford to have me be a SAHM, I said we couldn't afford not to.

Ps~Dinner together is also an important thing.

Do any of you have a cost-of-working online calculator that I can pass on to her?

Another thing: Her two oldest are heavily involved in baseball. (Might be softball or Little League; since we're not baseball players, I don't follow it all.) So, they have a LOT of evening practices and games. She and I have talked a lot about crockpot-meals and portable food for baseball days.

Can you imagine juggling a full-time job; 3 kids; AND the baseball schedule? Every year, I already pity her at baseball time.

Dh and I have figured out me working FT on paper many times. It never shows much of a profit!
After school care, convinecnce food, no time to bargain hunt etc.

Do any of you have a cost-of-working online calculator that I can pass on to her?


Try this one.
http://homeparents.about.com/cs/familyfinances/a/workcalc.htm

She needs to think about the decision to work long and hard or read some of my threads. I have 3 teenagers, involved in 3 sports year round, while traveling on overnighters for softball all summer, etc. We are not doing travel ball, too much money and time. I want to slow down. I am tired and when I did my taxes it did make a big difference. I don't get federal taxes taken out of my small check, because I wouldn't have anything left. Don't make enough money. I picked up an extra day of work to help with debt, and I hate it. I know some people can do it and do it well, I am not one of them. In my opinion, something suffers, and it is usually me trying to support the kids in all of their actvities, making dr.'s appts, and hauling to and from practices, groceries, bills, household cleaning, buying for holidays, and planning our recreation life, it isn't always greener on the other side. I will not be continuing my lifestyle come JUne.

If I got a full-time job making $10 an hour (seems to be the going wage for ft jobs around here), I would bring home less than $250 a month and someone else would care for my kids. That's just the figure during the school year. It would be nothing during the summer. I'd be working to pay taxes and childcare. That's also based on the current price of gas which is rising every week, not to mention the regular maintenance on the car. It's just not worth it to me.

I have to agree it wouldn't be worth it to me either.

To be selfish about this, I think she has to look at the impact on her own health. My kids are grown and it was assumed and expected I would go back to work when they finished homeschooling. However their antics as teens (one still lives at home), and dh's and the community, have placed me under such stress that they have exacerbated health issues.

I think if you consider what 'others' think you are leading yourself to the top of a long slippery ride downhill. She has to do what feels right to her. I also think she needs to recognize that she needs a certain amount of down time each day just to be herself, and if work is going to take that away, then she's better off without it.

Just my .02 worth.

good point Peanut. Sometimes women are just plain worn out after years of doing the whole second shift thing (when you do all the home stuff and family stuff, laundry, meals etc AFTER you put in 8 hours or 12 hours or more on the "job"!!!!!)

Most studies show that even when husbands "help" even if they think they are doing most of the work, they aren't even coming CLOSE to half of what their wife takes care of when she gets home from work.

So in feminist circles it's known as the "second shift" when the tired mother gets to come home and do a days worth of housework, kid care, catch up, meals, laundry etc.

I tend to think it's a better deal if a woman just does one shift in 24 hours. Better for her health. When she is young, she can do it, but it catches up to a lot of us around menopause.

I told my friend that she needs to tell her husband, "Wow! If I go back to work, I'll ALWAYS be too tired for sex!"

ROFL EB, that should get him!

When I worked dh was responsible for 1/2 the cooking, cleaning, errands, and child care? Is he ready to take off work when one of the kids get sick and needs to go to the doctor? I think she ought to make a weekly chore list of his 1/2 of the chores. That will fix him.

had another evil thought, she could go SHOPPING for that work wardrobe, and for her sake make sure she can take it all back the next day! But rack up a grand or two on shoes, purses, good work suits, blouses, hose and the right underthings to hold it all up and in so she looks nice and corporate!

Then show dh the bill!!!!!

heheheheheh

Then be ready to take it all back and shop more carefully if he still figures she needs to work outside the home too. After all if she is working her fingers to the bone, she doesn't need a lot of debt.

This is just for the shock and awe campaign if needed.

Wouldn't hurt to call Molly Maids for a price on a weekly cleaning, oh and price out dry cleaning all that nice work wear!!!!

If she is sensible about this and does it right, he should see that it will take at least 2 to 3 years of her working full time to pay off the debts incurred in working!!!!!

No gravy for the greedy!

Margery - you are delicious!!

~Mary

I can't believe his family think they have the right to add their two cents worth to this situation. I would tell them very politely that this is THEIR families issue and and she doesn't need them adding to the problem. Sounds to me like he might be whining to his family about things that are absolutely none of their business. All she needs to do is plant her feet firmly in the ground and say NO and the more he nags about it the less likely it is to ever happen - even when the kids are all gone. There isn't a man alive who would make me go back to work if I didn't want to because I think being there for your children is the most important job in the world. I realize that in a lot of cases this isn't possible or that some women don't want to stay home and this is okay too, but if staying home is what you want and you are managing okay then that is what you should do.

You know, I wonder if they ever talked about this before they got married. You know, when we have kids, I want to stay home. Period. Be there for my children, run the home, be there for you, yadda yadda. Because I know, the 2 guys that I dated more than casually after my divorce, both knew that I wanted to STAY AT HOME! And as soon as they knew it, I could tell that the relationship was not going to go any further, because they could not even imagine a life where their wife stayed home to reap the benefits of all THEIR hard work.
But, I do not disguise the fact to anyone that I am ready to STAY AT HOME, want to STAY AT HOME, and would quite enjoy STAYING AT HOME, rather than getting up at 0530 hours to get myself and the kids ready for the day; me for work, them for daycare, pick them up anywhere between 5 pm and 8 pm, depending on the day, and then having to cook, clean, baths, homework, laundry, and spend some time doing nothing, with THEM! It really is a hetic life, that I am more than ready to trade in!

Could it be that he is tired of shouldering the entire financial well-being of the family? He has a huge burden being the sole provider, and honestly if she won't even consider his feelings on the matter, she is being the selfish one in the situation.

I'd be curious to hear why after 13 years he thinks she should go back.

Sunny she asked her friend for help with thinking this thru, and her friend posted it here as a question. We aren't into judging her reasons, or his reasons,

just tossing ideas back and forth.

I don't think we can any of us decide that she is being selfish by her trying to think this thru for her family. Just a thinker, thinking. Asking for input.

Sometimes the decision is made on the basis of necessity as many posters can attest to. They don't have a choice, but she does, and she asked her friend to help her think it thru from a financial pov.

Sometimes when other things are equal, it DOESN'T always make sense for a woman to work as many posters have also mentioned. Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

It's always good to think thru the pros and cons for each family, and quite honestly, for some families they are better off at the end of the day with the mother home, and others it's better for her to work.

Thinking thru the finances takes a bit of doing to figure out the hidden costs, and that is what this thread is about. The hidden side, the taxes, child care, transportation, wardrobe, increased conveniance foods, and more.

that's all. Hope that helps, and welcome aboard, keep posting. :D

sorry Sunny, I read your post more carefully, you said IF she won't even consider his feelings...and I agree, that would be selfish.

You are right if that is the case, but back to the OP, it's about a woman who has been out of the secretarial work force for many years, and whose job skills are eroded. The way the OP was worded, it sounded like it was him who won't consider her feelings, and the OP was asking for input to help her friend handle the situation so that he can see more than the potential salary.

Often people think of a wage without considering the taxes, the costs associated with working and all those things can erase any benefit. Several people mention essentially going out to work for no benefit as a result.

A husband who forces a wife to work for nothing outside the home, and then expects her to continue doing the "minimal" stuff (now the kids are in school) may NOT be factoring in all the other parts of the equation from the money costs, to the social costs to their children, who are entering the teens.

By helping her think it thru, this will perhaps show them whether or not she is going out to work for a profit, and also will give her the ability to put her feelings into words he can understand.

men and women think very differently at times and men see a happy family, clean home, but seldom understand the work their wives do to make that happen. Women are so conditioned by the expectations on them to be the cook, laundress, housecleaner, and wiper up of runny noses, that we don't always put that into words men understand. We just do it, and at times it's too much.

I understand completely what you are saying. I keep typing out a long post to respond, but I think we agree that it comes down to whatever is best for the family.

I don't want to ruffle feathers on my first day!

We have feathers? Thats where they all come from, littering my floor! Now, if I could just get rid of them... I wouldnt have to sweep and vacuum so darned much! :)

The OP was asking for input to help her friend handle the situation so that he can see more than the potential salary.

Often people think of a wage without considering the taxes, the costs associated with working and all those things can erase any benefit. Several people mention essentially going out to work for no benefit as a result.

Bingo! He thinks they'd be rolling in money if only she went to work. And he's not considering all the downsides -- sick kids, heavier taxes, etc.

Sometimes we got a little jokey in our replies: 'tell him you'll be too tired for sex,' etc. But honestly, her workload would increase dramatically. And he's not the kind of guy to come home from a long day and start vacuuming. (I don't know many who are!)

Gee, I'm home withthe kids and it's a far longer day than DH works!

I have a wonderful DH and I feel that HE is doing the second shift thing. He got up with my daughter in the middle of the night with her nosebleed. Then again at 5:30am when she woke up. HE made breakfast and called me down at 7am for it. He'll already have the bread machine going. And my son's school snack packed with anything else that DS needs to bring to school. Then HE brings my son to kindergarten and heads to work. After work he'll help with dinner if it isn't already done and then help with dishes and play with the kids. Then we each do one kid for bedtime jammies, brushing teeth, reading a book, telling a bedtime story and songs. Then it's 8pm and we both finally get to sit down.

I chose well. We had a good division of labor before kids.

He gets out of grocery shopping, alot of the cleaning, laundry, budgeting, writing bills, getting people to work on the house, shopping for clothes (including his), etc.

Someday I'll go back to work part-time. I'll wake up in the morning and head to work. Daddy will have breakfast with the kids, pack their lunches, and bring them to school. I'll get out in time to pick them up. I had a very well-paying job and my old company will let me work whatever hours I choose as well as take me back after a very long "sabatical" of about 7 years.