open-minded non-christians?

[UUMomof3]

I'm still working out what I believe which makes it tough to explain. I can explain what I'm not:

I'm not Christian. I don't have any problem with Christians, except the ones who assume because I have anything else in common with them I must be one. Guess what? There are secular homeschoolers. There are even Jewish and Muslim homeschoolers.

I'm not atheist. I don't have a problem with atheists, except the ones who make it clear that because I believe in what can't be proven I must be intellectually inferior.

Am I also not alone? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

(technically, I'm not a homeschooler anymore, but it's the easiest way to explain it)

[monkeywrangler71]

I'm not a Christian, I'm not an atheist, and I'm not technically a homeschooler

Not to make assumptions about your user name, but I thought about UU once and decided against it when I realized it involved having to get up early on Sunday. No other option really fits.

[jamie79]

I am not a Christian. I believe in science and evolution. I dont have anything against Christans except the ones who tell me that because I do not believe what they do then I am living my life wrong. I say live and let live. I am also not a homeschooler

[starsapphire]

That would be me I'm not Christian but I do believe in God, though in a very different way. I have no problem with what anyone else believes in (or not believe in) until I get treated as though I am seriously misguided while they are acting smugly superior (overtly or covertly) because their belief or non-belief is the only real truth or way.

[Durgan]

I'm still working out what I believe which makes it tough to explain. I can explain what I'm not:

I'm not Christian. I don't have any problem with Christians, except the ones who assume because I have anything else in common with them I must be one. Guess what? There are secular homeschoolers. There are even Jewish and Muslim homeschoolers.

I'm not atheist. I don't have a problem with atheists, except the ones who make it clear that because I believe in what can't be proven I must be intellectually inferior.

Am I also not alone? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

(technically, I'm not a homeschooler anymore, but it's the easiest way to explain it)

Expand your reading material and you just might be able to make up your own mind.
http://www.durgan.org/ShortURL/?UQCLR Audio Book
http://www.durgan.org/ShortURL/?JGHGN Text Form

http://www.durgan.org/ShortURL/?WPDOM Audio Book Forum
http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/6107 Written form, an easy read.

Many of us saw religion as harmless nonsense. Beliefs might lack all supporting evidence but, we thought, if people needed a crutch for consolation, where's the harm?

September 11th changed all that. Revealed faith is not harmless nonsense, it can be lethally dangerous nonsense. Dangerous because it gives people unshakable confidence in their own righteousness. Dangerous because it gives them false courage to kill themselves, which automatically removes normal barriers to killing others. Dangerous because it teaches enmity to others labeled only by a difference of inherited tradition.

And dangerous because we have all bought into a weird respect, which uniquely protects religion from normal criticism. Let's now stop being so damned respectful. Richard Dawkins,

[UUMomof3]

That, most likely, make you an Agnostic.

From wikipedia:


Basically... Christians/Muslims/etc are the believers, Atheists are the non-believers and agnostics are the 'fence-sitters'.

Good luck trying to figure it out.

Jason

Thanks for that, but I'm not an agnostic either. My father is an agnostic if he doesn't want to be bothered with a debate, or an atheist if he's feeling a bit more confrontational.

I believe in something. I actively seek contact with the great mystery. I also believe in the use of reason, logic, and science. But just because we cannot explain or quantify something right now, doesn't mean we won't ever be able to. UU is actually the closest fit, which is why I attend a UU church. "Free and responsible search for meaning"...I like that part. I'm just wishing I knew more searchers. So many people have decided either that they've found the meaning or that there isn't any, and they are all very vocal about how incredibly blind or stupid the searchers are.

Edited to add: I'm not saying I'm only looking for homeschoolers either. That was by way of example about people thinking I have one thing in common with them, so I must be exactly like them in every other way.

[monkeywrangler71]

I believe in something. I actively seek contact with the great mystery. I also believe in the use of reason, logic, and science. But just because we cannot explain or quantify something right now, doesn't mean we won't ever be able to. UU is actually the closest fit, which is why I attend a UU church. "Free and responsible search for meaning"...I like that part. I'm just wishing I knew more searchers. So many people have decided either that they've found the meaning or that there isn't any, and they are all very vocal about how incredibly blind or stupid the searchers are.

Edited to add: I'm not saying I'm only looking for homeschoolers either. That was by way of example about people thinking I have one thing in common with them, so I must be exactly like them in every other way.

I know and understand exactly what you are saying. I do not know the answers, but I do not believe that means that there aren't any, I have beliefs, just not ones that fit into any particular pigeon hole. I read, research, and respect all paths, but get frustrated with those who think there is only one way and that it must be theirs. I do not want to insult atheists or religious fundamentalists, but when it comes to being dogmatic, I see very little difference between the two.

I was just joking around with the homeschooling bit. I know that was just an example, but I am homeschooling (just not 'technically' because they are under 6) and I am frustrated with the lack of resources and support that are not either extremely religious or rabidly atheist. There seems to be no one in the middle anymore.

[YankeeMom]

I've often wondered what the precepts were for the UU Church. I'm as open-minded as you are when it comes to the great religious debate. We belong to a secular homeschooling group only because the Christian one was more interested in proselytizing to us than being a homeschool group. But our secular group often meets at the UU Church nearby. Not sure where I'm going with this, just wanted to say you are not alone

[UUMomof3]

You sure about that? There are many types of 'Agnostic'... which wikipedia seems happy to define:



Simply based on what you said in your previous post... I'd suspect you fall into the 'agnostic theist' version of 'agnostic' (btw... my parents also fall into this category... though they do not, actively, search... like you do)

I wouldn't just search for meaning in the books of the religious though.
I, seriously, recommend an in depth look at human history. Might help in your search.


However... I do not criticise the 'searcher', as you so aptly named it. Everyone has to decide their own path.
We are all searchers at some point, regardless of what we become.

Based on that definition I suppose I am exactly that.

I do look for meaning beyond books about religion. History, physics, language, music, nature, parenting, chocolate...all are potential pathways to the divine. About the only places I've not encountered the mysterious wonder are the laundry room and kitchen. I suspect that says more about me than the object of my search!

I'm sorry if I've made you feel defensive (your last statement). I certainly do not find your input to be critical or arrogant.

[UUMomof3]

I've often wondered what the precepts were for the UU Church. I'm as open-minded as you are when it comes to the great religious debate. We belong to a secular homeschooling group only because the Christian one was more interested in proselytizing to us than being a homeschool group. But our secular group often meets at the UU Church nearby. Not sure where I'm going with this, just wanted to say you are not alone

You can learn more at www.uua.org and various other websites. I know the next nearest UU church to us frequently offers classes and workshops for those who are curious.

While all member churches of the UUA have agreed to the "seven principles" in theory, the flavor is dramatically different from one congregation to the next. The bigger UU church downtown would be a better fit for me in terms of the spiritual offerings, but the timing of their services would be a perfectly hideous fit for our family.

[phoeny_moonstar]

I would fall into this category. Though I can not discuss it at this particular time, I defintely fit into this category!

[Greebo]

What if we can prove that belief in anything supernatural defies any and all sense of logic and reason?

I used to be you. Non Christian, non Atheist. Then someone spelled out how such a position is inherently contradictory, and goes directly against that which we can see, touch, smell, taste, hear and most importantly - *prove* - in any and everything real.

I won't try to force the reasoning on you - so I'll stop here - but I offer to explain further *if* (and only if) you are interested, because I remember the days of my agnosticism well. They were deeply troubled, because of the inherent conflict between what I wanted to believe, and the nature of reality.

[UUMomof3]

What if we can prove that belief in anything supernatural defies any and all sense of logic and reason?

I used to be you. Non Christian, non Atheist. Then someone spelled out how such a position is inherently contradictory, and goes directly against that which we can see, touch, smell, taste, hear and most importantly - *prove* - in any and everything real.

I won't try to force the reasoning on you - so I'll stop here - but I offer to explain further *if* (and only if) you are interested, because I remember the days of my agnosticism well. They were deeply troubled, because of the inherent conflict between what I wanted to believe, and the nature of reality.

I'm sorry that your days of agnosticism were so difficult. I don't find them to be so. I completely understand that what I believe defies logic, but I'm OK with that.

Likewise, I'm glad you've found something that works for you. The challenges I face won't be solved by embracing atheism. Pretending to be a Christian might answer the lonliness, but I'm not going to lie to people so they will like me.

It's been explained to me six ways from thursday, how illogical I am. It's even been suggested that the experiences I "believe" I've had, may be proof that I am dangerously unbalanced and need medication or perhaps even electro-shock therapy. I greatly appreciate that you and Jason are not zealots.

[monkeywrangler71]

UUMomof3, are your children in the UU religious education program? If so, what do you think of it and are they learning anything/enjoying it. I'm considering going back now that the kids are older, specifically for this program. I hear it's good, but it is hard to find specifics about it - what age they begin, if there is a specific curriculum or if it is just developed at the congregation level, etc. I need to find an open community for my children, particularly since they are not going to school.

Also, are you a member of the HUUmans on the Web group? I used to be in the yahoo discussion group but left a few years ago. It was an election year I think, and no one was talking about anything except politics. Just wondering if it's worth signing up again.

[UUMomof3]

UUMomof3, are your children in the UU religious education program? If so, what do you think of it and are they learning anything/enjoying it. I'm considering going back now that the kids are older, specifically for this program. I hear it's good, but it is hard to find specifics about it - what age they begin, if there is a specific curriculum or if it is just developed at the congregation level, etc. I need to find an open community for my children, particularly since they are not going to school.

Also, are you a member of the HUUmans on the Web group? I used to be in the yahoo discussion group but left a few years ago. It was an election year I think, and no one was talking about anything except politics. Just wondering if it's worth signing up again.

Good questions. To my knowledge, each church does their own curriculum, BUT they are usually using materials developed (sometimes by the UUA) for UU RE. Right now my kids (3rd, 1st, K) are learning about those holidays that are surrounding us and the traditions and stories behind them. The stories are presented as stories, not as history. The older kids (5/6) are doing Islam, in depth. My third grader also did a big unit on "UU Heros", basically people who helped change lives through their day to day work and convictions. All three of my kids love going to RE.

We do RE for much the same reason you are considering it, but you might want to consider other youth clubs: Girl Guides comes right to mind, not sure if 4H is available outside the US.

If you want to know specifics about your local congregation, check to see if they have newcomer gatherings or information. There is often a packet you can read over on your own time, and most churches have breakfasts or even classes for those considering membership.

I tried out a number of "secular homeschooling" and the "UU Homeschooling" groups on Yahoo. I didn't find that they answered the needs I was attempting to address: lack of resources (I don't have time to edit a religious curriculum) and lack of nearby contacts. Many of them also were extremely political and/or did a lot of religion bashing.