Where does the money come from?

**jas** · 10-26-2008, 10:03 AM

If Obama does become the next President and in time his plan for national health care comes into being where does the money come from to pay for it?
We will in some way be paying for it won't we? Will people be taxed on their income or will there be a tax added to everything we purchase. How is it funded in other countries?

Thanks

**Denvergirlie** · 10-26-2008, 11:06 AM

A good portion of government money comes from taxes, either from individauls, or corporations.
So a simplistic way to increase benefits, then money will come from one of two place. More taxes or reallocation of taxes that are already accounted for in the "budget". (other sources of income for the government include tarrifs, interest earned, etc)

<a href="http://s112.photobucket.com/albums/n193/Denvergirlie/?action=view&current=taxrates.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n193/Denvergirlie/taxrates.jpg" border="0" alt="tax rates as of 2005"></a>

Here is a grid outlining percentages of taxes paid in other countries, many of these countries provide health insurance and other forms of socailism including college educations, etc.

France for example has a very high taxation rate, but it has good public transportation, free health care, free college education and an average 35 hour work week with at least 6 weeks of vacation time a year. However, they also have riots often with their youth population that is thus over educated and then unemployed as there are simply not enough jobs to go around for everyone.

It's a trade off.

The USA is supposed to be a democracy, but it's really becoming closer and closer to a socailist state. The US does have some socialised services, highways (interstates), education, welfare, social security, etc.

In a VERY simplistic sense the Democratic party would like in increase the level of socailism in the US and the republican party wants smaller government and more capailtism.

*** These statements I have made are VERY SIMPLISTIC in a very general top line type of way.

**rainbowgc** · 10-26-2008, 11:42 AM

I think it will come from two sources - less profits for the insurance companies per person and more people signed up paying. Do you know in Holland everyone pays $150 Euros per month with assistance for the poor? You never hear about the health disasters over there like you do hear. I am on Cobra paying $600 a month, when that ends I get guarantee issues for the first year $1200 per month, goes up every year after that.(BTW that is just for me, one person) I hope Obama wins because we all need health care that doesn't bankrupt us. Let's say I pay the $ til it bankrupts me, then I am eligible for medicaid and other government benefits. End the end which do you think costs more, a reasonable rate I can pay over a lifetime or the insurance getting all the profits til they have all my $ and then dumping me unto the public's back to pay the rest of my lifetime health bills? (I have disabling illness's)

**Denvergirlie** · 10-26-2008, 12:07 PM

Here is Obama's plan directly.

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/HealthPlanOverview.pdf

It states what the objectives are but not how it is to be a funded or adminstered, so once again it's very simplistic.

You will also remember that Bill Clinton campaigned heavily on health care in the 1992 election. As we all know that plan was defeated and at that time both the house and congress where controlled by the Democratic party. So even with a Democrats in charge of 2 of the 3 branches of our government, health care reform was not passed.

** One thing I find most amusing about Obama's plan is that the US could import drugs from overseas where it is cheaper... do you know why it's cheaper?! Because the governments of those countries don't allow the drug companies to advertise to the public like they do in the US. If the US would outlaw direct advertising then the costs would drop like a rock. America has one of the highest percsription drug use the the world, and yet we are far the healtiest countries... Ironic!

**jas** · 10-26-2008, 12:52 PM

Thanks Denvergirl for the link. Has he ever said what it really will cost us? I saw the graph you put up as an example in some other countries. It will not be free by no means the money will come from somewhere for sure. Just wanted to get a handle on what/where that might be from.

Thanks again.

Anyone on here live in a country with a national health care plan? Do you like it? How is it paid for where you live?

**Denvergirlie** · 10-26-2008, 01:00 PM

http://healthpolicyandmarket.blogspo...ck-obamas.html

Here is a blog that has done a fairly good job of breaking down some of the jargon, but in no way is it gospel.

The facts are that no one, not even Obama, can say for a fact that here is the cost and this is what it will mean for you.

One has to always remember that the president does not have absolute control. There are also millions and millons of dollars that lobby for both sides of any pending laws.

Doctor's in Europe make less than doctor's in the US, so it's fair to assume that the doctor's organizations would be lobbying against national health care as they would lose money. The private insurance comapnies would also be lobbying against this as their profit margins would decrease/or possibly they would cease to exsist at all. Lobbyiest have a LOT of power in this country.

When Hillary Clinton was the first lady, she campaigned hard for health care reform but was defeated. However, in her recent campaign for the democratic nomination for president, she was the number 2 recipient of donations from employees of hospitals and nursing homes, as well as insurance companies.

Here is another thing you can read about who all profits from health care in our country, it's far from cut and dry. Michelle Obama herself makes over $300K a year working for the current "system".

http://www.alternet.org/healthwellne...ange_his_plan/

The author adovcates for americans to support a third party canididate at the end, so please be aware that once again this is not gospel, but it is a fairly solid peice of writing about who all has stakes in health care reform.

**jas** · 10-26-2008, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by Denvergirlie

http://healthpolicyandmarket.blogspo...ck-obamas.html

Here is a blog that has done a fairly good job of breaking down some of the jargon, but in no way is it gospel.

The facts are that no one, not even Obama, can say for a fact that here is the cost and this is what it will mean for you.

Then how do I know I will be better off with this plan? It might cost me a higher percentage than I pay now which is 8.5% of a 65000.00 year salary around 5532.00 per year. Dh and I are pre-tax dollars, we buy dd's policy privately. Both are BCBS it just is cheaper this way. Go figure.

thanks

Parsimonious · 10-26-2008, 01:13 PM

@Jas:

I live in a country with governmental medical insurance.

You pay a fixed percentage of your income for medical insurance. Everybody who holds a job that pays more than 400€ a month, and who does not earn more than 40,XXX a year, or is a government employee or self-employed, picks one of the private companies that offer mandatory medical insurance and parts of his/her paycheck are then automatically transferred to this company. If you have a medical insurance, your husband/wife/registered companion and all your children are automatically covered too, without additional costs and without health checks!

I am in a low income bracket and pay 90€ a month for medical insurance. My husband also holds a job, he earns less and pays less for his insurance.

When you visit a doctor, you need to pay a deductible of 10€ per visit per quarter per type of doctor. E.g. if you go to a general practitioner in January, you pay 10€, should you need to go again in February, it's free, if you go again in May, you pay 10€. There's a maximum of 120€ per person in such deductibles.
If you need medication, you pay a lump sum. There's a maximum of 2% of your income (if you paid 2% of your income on medication, there's no further payments by you). Should you be chronically ill, that's 1% of your income.
If you stay in hospital, you need to contribute to the costs of your stay (10€ per day), but not to the costs of your treatment.
A dental plan is included, but if you want fancy stuff (a special filling instead of the cheapest one) or need tooth replacement, not all costs will be covered.
Glasses are only covered for kids, not for adults (ugh!). The eye specialist, of course, is covered.

I love it! Yes, I sometimes need to chip in some extra money, for example because my "pill" is not covered, I wear glasses, and I sometimes prefer the "fancy" option at the dentist. But it is very reassuring to know that if something really, really bad happens to me, healthwise, my health will be the only thing I will need to worry about. I will never be in debts because of a necessary medical treatment! The rates I pay for my insurance will increase if I earn more money, but, heck, I'll be able to afford higher payments if I earn more money

They will not increase if I get sick, or old, or have a dozen of special-needs-children.

PS: Should I ever get unemployed, the government will pay for my insurance

It's part of welfare here.

**jas** · 10-26-2008, 01:27 PM

Denvergirl , I just read that blog. It seems to me that on this issue there is not going to be any magic happening any time soon.

**Denvergirlie** · 10-26-2008, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by Parsimonious

Deleted

(I better keep out of discussions like these)

I understand this! I want to keep out as well because the answer is that no one party or person can fix these issues with ease.

I find a lot at fault with both parties, yes I lean towards one over the other, but really don't like either one of them, and I certainly don't respect any of them outright.

What I do do is become more informed and read and learn about the failings all around us. I like some things about the Democrats and like some things about the Republicans, unfortauntely for me as a individual I really has no power to affect change.
Only together can we make changes. Remember "we the people".
If you don't like things the way they are get involved. Get involved in your local community and local government.
Small local politicans usually move up in the world, they start as a school board director, then maybe a state congressman, then a national congressman, then maybe governor or a president.

Opps, I see now that you have re-editted your post and glad to see your response about health care outside of the US.

Parsimonious · 10-26-2008, 01:46 PM

@Denvergirlie: My original post was a bit more... opinionated, therefore I deleted it. The new post, of course, isn't neutral either :-) I find it very, very, very challenging to discuss politics and remain within the bounds of FV standards of politeness

If you don't like things the way they are get involved. Get involved in your local community and local government.
Should this part of your post refer to me: I am involved. Only a bit in local politics ("card carrying member" of a political party), but more so in my local community

Heck, I've even read parts of the political platforms of McCain and Obama, and I'm not even a US resident :p

**Denvergirlie** · 10-26-2008, 01:53 PM

[QUOTE=Parsimonious;1028832 If you don't like things the way they are get involved. Get involved in your local community and local government.
Should this part of your post refer to me[/QUOTE]

It refers to everybody and anybody who is not happy with the way things are regardless of where they happen to reside in this world.

As for the politeness thing... I too understand. I try very hard to not "bash" either candidate/ party and still provide links to outside sources that are somewhat objective (subjective). It's a very fine line to try and walk indeed.

**jas** · 10-26-2008, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by Parsimonious

@Jas:

I live in a country with governmental medical insurance.

You pay a fixed percentage of your income for medical insurance. Everybody who holds a job that pays more than 400€ a month, and who does not earn more than 40,XXX a year, or is a government employee or self-employed, picks one of the private companies that offer mandatory medical insurance and parts of his/her paycheck are then automatically transferred to this company. If you have a medical insurance, your husband/wife/registered companion and all your children are automatically covered too, without additional costs and without health checks!

I am in a low income bracket and pay 90€ a month for medical insurance. My husband also holds a job, he earns less and pays less for his insurance.

When you visit a doctor, you need to pay a deductible of 10€ per visit per quarter per type of doctor. E.g. if you go to a general practitioner in January, you pay 10€, should you need to go again in February, it's free, if you go again in May, you pay 10€. There's a maximum of 120€ per person in such deductibles.
If you need medication, you pay a lump sum. There's a maximum of 2% of your income (if you paid 2% of your income on medication, there's no further payments by you). Should you be chronically ill, that's 1% of your income.
If you stay in hospital, you need to contribute to the costs of your stay (10€ per day), but not to the costs of your treatment.
A dental plan is included, but if you want fancy stuff (a special filling instead of the cheapest one) or need tooth replacement, not all costs will be covered.
Glasses are only covered for kids, not for adults (ugh!). The eye specialist, of course, is covered.

I love it! Yes, I sometimes need to chip in some extra money, for example because my "pill" is not covered, I wear glasses, and I sometimes prefer the "fancy" option at the dentist. But it is very reassuring to know that if something really, really bad happens to me, healthwise, my health will be the only thing I will need to worry about. I will never be in debts because of a necessary medical treatment! The rates I pay for my insurance will increase if I earn more money, but, heck, I'll be able to afford higher payments if I earn more money

They will not increase if I get sick, or old, or have a dozen of special-needs-children.

PS: Should I ever get unemployed, the government will pay for my insurance

It's part of welfare here.

Thank you for sharing. What is the percentage of income that is charged? What did your country have before? Did it take long to implement what you have now?

**Dancing Lotus** · 10-26-2008, 04:32 PM

reallocation of taxes that are already accounted for in the "budget"

The government has more then enough PORK to cover a medical plan. I think it's time to get real and get rid of all the useless PORK spending and put that money to good use.

**jas** · 10-26-2008, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by AnnK

reallocation of taxes that are already accounted for in the "budget"

The government has more then enough PORK to cover a medical plan. I think it's time to get real and get rid of all the useless PORK spending and put that money to good use.

Well sure there is enough if useless spending were to stop, but will it? There is so much spent on things that are crazy.

Should get some of these frugal people here to shape things up there would be plenty to go around. Get DR on the budget.