Feminism - discussion

[annymoll]

I am more traditional. But I will say that the women I have encountered that work in the military do the job as well as the men. I have every confidence in their ability.Same for police officers, firefighters, etc. My sister is a dozer operator. 5'2 maybe 95 pounds. Works as hard as any fella on the crew. I am so proud of her.(Powerfm1-I can never win a wrestle match with DH, but let me lay down and use my legs- I can kick his hinney.)

[Telephus44]

I'm definitely on the more feminist side. In fact, DH and I have had several heated debates on feminism vs. Christianity - I tend to view Christian women as expected to be subservient to their husbands (as head of household) and as a reward they get protection and taken care of. DH keeps trying to tell me that that isn't how it is, but I just can't shake the feeling of trying to be told how to live my life and what to do. Obviously not accusing anyone here, and I respect everyone's viewpoints - it actually helps to read how other people look at it. There's a lot of really really radical Christian viewpoints out there (since we've been debating this, I've looked up a lot online) and it really helps me to see less radical views of real women that I actually know and trust (like everyone here!)

In general, I do believe that women can do just about everything men can do, just that they are naturally gifted in different areas. What concerns me most, and why I see women as continuing to be looked down upon and oppressed, is that women see that men are in charge - that's why they are trying to be equal to them - we can wear pants, we can actually work outside the home - but when have you ever seen a huge movement of men wanting to wear dresses and be stay-at-home dads? I think a lot of the "oh, being a SAHM is the toughest job ever but so rewarding" being said by people is a lot of lip service - it's absolutely true, but if most people believed it, you'd find a lot more people doing it - more SAHD's and SAHM's. Women do not have a fair share of power in today's society, and that should change. It's not just that we have to take care of ourselves - it's that we need real respect for what we do!

[Jamauk]

Jamuak - I would suggest to you that it is not "lower" standards, just different. Lower body strength vs. upper body strength. Long term stamina vs. short burst stamina.

I would suggest to you that you would view these things differently if women had traditionally had these jobs and the standards were modified for male strength. I worked in women's employment for over 30 years. Don't believe the hype - go back and read my posts. Talk to women who do these jobs. Don't just take others words on it. You are a smart woman, figure it out.

Whether its lower standards or different standards, I don't agree with it. And I wouldn't feel any differently if it were men trying to break into a woman dominated role. The fact remains that there are certain physical criteria for certain jobs. Every single job candidate needs to pass the exact same test, in my opionion, especially in an emergency response job.

For instance - what if I'm stuck in my attic and my house is burning down. A firefighter is called to the scene and they must prop a ladder up to my house and while balancing on the ladder (using their legs), they must pull an unconsious me out of the attic using nothing but their arms (because they are using their leg strength to balance).

If a female firefighter shows up - is she going to tell my family "I'm sorry, I only had to pass lower body strength testing, I have no upper body strength, so your wife/mother is stuck."

Conversely, if there were a situation where a male firefighter was only able to use his lower body strength, could he say "well, I wasn't tested as strenuously in that area, sorry I let your house burn down."

I'm not saying that I don't think woman shouldn't be firefighters or that men shouldn't be nurses, I just think training/testing, etc...for any particular job should remain the same across the board. Any candidate that can pass the test, regardless of gender, is qualified for the job.

I'm sorry, but in my book its not "equality" if they are given *different* tests. And isn't that what feminism is all about? equality?

[Jamauk]

I'm not saying that I don't think woman shouldn't be firefighters or that men shouldn't be nurses, I just think training/testing, etc...for any particular job should remain the same across the board. Any candidate that can pass the test, regardless of gender, is qualified for the job.

Well, that sentence got all kinds of goofed up - what I tried to say is that I have no problem with women firefighters or male nurses as long as they are held to the same standards & same tests.

[powerfm1]

You have to remember that the criteria and the tests were set up for men. Those jobs along with many others were "meant" to be held by men. Would you tell a woman firefighter to just leave until the man comes along?

We have been trained to look at things from only one view. Women have alwyas done heavy work. Worked in the fields, lifted comatose patients, carried very heavy loads. Those arguments don't wash anymore.

I've been part of massive overhauls in job testing criteria and training programs. Get out there and look around I truly encourage you. There are many publications available from the Women's Division of the Dept. of Labor that you can send for to see what I'm talking about.

[Jamauk]

You have to remember that the criteria and the tests were set up for men. Those jobs along with many others were "meant" to be held by men. Would you tell a woman firefighter to just leave until the man comes along?

Its my opinion that the tests should not be written towards one gender or another, the tests should be written to the standard of the job - period. Whoever can pass it, great.

We have been trained to look at things from only one view. Women have alwyas done heavy work. Worked in the fields, lifted comatose patients, carried very heavy loads. Those arguments don't wash anymore.

It wasn't my argument that woman can't do heavy work. In fact, you brought up the differences in strength - all I said was that testing/training should be the same. There are plenty of woman that I know that can run circles around men in any test, any day of the week.


It appears that you are too emotionally involved in this issue - to your credit, afterall it was your life's work, Lucky You to have been able to make your passion your job - however your emotional involvement seems to be making it difficult for you to even consider another point of view.

At this point I think maybe we should just agree to disagree.
Cheers!

[perSue]

Telephus, i read your posts on both of these threads and I honestly agree a lot with you...

and it's really neat to see that you went out & did a little research on your own.

there's so much confusion out there it's hard to know what to think.
i grew up with a lot of the same "christian values" being taught you are OWNED by your DH - simply because it's pointed out in the bible that women are property... which is why - as was pointed out on the other thread - that women couldn't own property... how does property own other property?

So, I broke through that ideology as a child seeing my mother become head of household and a single mom. She didnt have the luxury (as some would say) of being a SAHM.

And I COMPLETELY agree that those who state "it's the hardest job but the most rewarding..." IS lip service.

Most people you can tell when they say something if it's sincere or not... I've YET to meet anyone OTHER than fellow SAHM's state that sincerely.

Sure, it's a great job, but I probly walk more miles barefoot than a "business" woman in heels any day. (ok i do wear shoes... just making a point! lol)

Anyway. I'm really glad I posted this now...

I've gotten to see a LOT of different points of view, see what women feel today about these topics... and I have to say I've learned a LOT.

I can't say thank you enough for that... and having these discussions as maturely. I was honestly afraid when I'd posted these that there'd be a heated discussion and all kinds of banter... but there hasn't been.

That is wonderful... to be comfortable enough to share your differences of opinions and not feel threatened.

Why can't we translate this to the real world, I wonder.

we're all different... but that's what makes us the same.

[Dixie]

Missouri Mom, I totally agree!