Are we sure we want socialized health care?

**Dad_of_4** · 06-05-2008, 10:42 PM

For all of those who think socialized health care is a great thing, read this.

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/jun/08060402.html

How would you like to be told, 'No we will not pay for you to have potentially life saving treatment, but we will help you kill yourself'.

**Nishu** · 06-06-2008, 12:05 AM

How about being told "Well sorry you don't have insurance... I guess you'll just have to die." obviously this woman has this type of healthcare because she doesn't have any other options, so how is it worse than having none at all?

And that's not really socialized healthcare... It's a government funded health insurance/hmo-type thingie. Socialized healthcare would skip the 'coverage' aspect of it all together and just treat everyone at government funded treatment facilities.

Being a military family, that's pretty much what we have and I know they're not perfect, but it's freaking AWESOME to be able to walk in to the Naval hospital and never having to worry about my health care cutting into my grocery money or being turned away because of my insurance. When we get sick, we focus on getting better. I don't have to worry about going bankrupt over medical problems. I kinda like the idea of everyone having that kind of security.

**Palooka** · 06-06-2008, 12:12 AM

People with health insurance are denied everyday here from treatment that they need. If Socialized medicine was here, this would not happen.

Medicaid is not socialized health care.

**zakity** · 06-06-2008, 12:26 AM

And, being an Oregonian, we voted in the "right to die" law twice. (Yes, twice. Apparently, they didn't believe us the first time.)

**suki** · 06-06-2008, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by Nishu

Being a military family, that's pretty much what we have and I know they're not perfect, but it's freaking AWESOME to be able to walk in to the Naval hospital and never having to worry about my health care cutting into my grocery money or being turned away because of my insurance. When we get sick, we focus on getting better. I don't have to worry about going bankrupt over medical problems. I kinda like the idea of everyone having that kind of security.

I loved NAVCARE. I loved that I could take my kids to the clinic when they were ill and walk out with prescriptions in hand, never worrying about costs. I agree, it would be nice to have that available for all.

I had a friend with ovarian cancer, was told they couldn't start her chemo and radiation treatments without insurance. They did do the surgery to remove the tumor laden ovaries, but she is in collections and struggling because she can't pay the bills and hasn't been able to work (too sick).

I guess it's okay if she dies because she doesn't have insurance.

**Dad_of_4** · 06-06-2008, 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by suki

I loved NAVCARE. I loved that I could take my kids to the clinic when they were ill and walk out with prescriptions in hand, never worrying about costs. I agree, it would be nice to have that available for all.

I had a friend with ovarian cancer, was told they couldn't start her chemo and radiation treatments without insurance. They did do the surgery to remove the tumor laden ovaries, but she is in collections and struggling because she can't pay the bills and hasn't been able to work (too sick).

I guess it's okay if she dies because she doesn't have insurance.

Oh I guess you missed the part of the article where the big bad drug company gave her the drugs for free. Imagine that a private company doing an act of charity.

Socialized Medicine will become just like Medicaid and Medicare. Nothing about it will be easy or quick. The government will employ thousands to people to do cost/benefit analysis to decide weather people get a certian treatment or not. Things like Cancer Treatment will be like plastic surgery is now. The rich pay for it in the USA, the middle class go to Mexico to get it. Of course, it will be a good thing for Mexico. Need Chemo? Tired of waiting for approval from socialized medicine? Come to Mexico! Same day Chemo! No waiting! Low prices!

**suki** · 06-06-2008, 08:39 AM

Originally Posted by Dad_of_4

Oh I guess you missed the part of the article where the big bad drug company gave her the drugs for free. Imagine that a private company doing an act of charity.

Socialized Medicine will become just like Medicaid and Medicare. Nothing about it will be easy or quick. The government will employ thousands to people to do cost/benefit analysis to decide weather people get a certian treatment or not. Things like Cancer Treatment will be like plastic surgery is now. The rich pay for it in the USA, the middle class go to Mexico to get it. Of course, it will be a good thing for Mexico. Need Chemo? Tired of waiting for approval from socialized medicine? Come to Mexico! Same day Chemo! No waiting! Low prices!

I didn't miss any part of the article.

**Ceashels** · 06-06-2008, 08:46 AM

I think that with any health care system there will always be pros and cons. It was nice for my friend in the UK to NOT have to think of the finances behind his father's ICU stay, hip repair and rehab after an unexpected car accident.

We already have government (Medicaid, Medicare) and privately funded medical payment programs. If we could find a level headed business person who could combine the structure to the benefit of all (most all) (certainly more than are helped now) then how can that not benefit the US as a whole?

-Fewer ER and hospital visits needed by those that can afford it least because they could go to a primary care physician without worry about how to pay for it.
-The impoverished would be healthier and better educated making their quality of living better overall as well as reducing the need for the more complex treatments needed because they waited to long.

I think the reallocating of funds is crucial. I know there are a few programs/states that require health care coverage. Maryland was looking into such a program and even if the person was on welfare, they had to pay a portion of that into the cost of the coverage, thus making them part of the solution and more responsible for their own health care. The cost is supplemented by gov funding and this funding is the reallocation of the medicaid system.

It is certainly something to think about. Even though there will always be cases that are extreme, that tug at the heart, that seem to be harsh..... we have that now, so could it really be worse?

Just my thoughts.

**Greebo** · 06-06-2008, 09:15 AM

My problem with socialized anything is from a different angle.

1) Socialized anything makes the assumption that we are responsible for everyone else. That then logically means that everyone else is responsible for us. If everyone else is responsible for us, we don't have to be responsible for us. The end result of following such logic is Soviet Russia, which in its great campaign for equality, killed millions of its own citizens in slave labor camps "for the common good".
2) The idea that we're responsible comes from the idea that there is a limited amount of money, so that anyone with more is somehow beholden to someone with less, because the money was somehow taken from the person with less. This concept simply isn't true. Weath is created by productivity, and wealth created is not wealth taken from someone else, so long as it is created with honesty and integrity. Wal*Mart got rich by making goods available cheap, saving customers money while giving them goods they needed.

Do I think we should help those in need when we have a chance? Absolutely! If its done responsibly. I think charities are a great way to direct wealth once ones own needs are met.

Do I think we should be *taxed* to help those in need, forcing us to give without a choice, and fostering the problems I listed above? No - taking from someone to give to someone else, by force (the force of law) is theft, and is immoral. Any time Government takes something (money, liberty, whatever) from one group and gives it to another, unequally, its wrong. The fact that group 1 is "the rich" and group 2 is "the poor" makes no difference.

Further, I'm adamantly opposed to anyone being forced to pay for the irresponsibility of another. If someone lives their whole life making stupid choices, there's a price tag associated with that, and it's not right to bail people out when they won't bail themselves out.

We need to bring the mindset of people back to the primary virtues of self responsibility, first! If everyone took better care of #1, first, everyone would be in a better position to voluntarily help those who find themselves in deep trouble through no fault of their own.

**Dad_of_4** · 06-06-2008, 09:27 AM

Greebo, I could not agree more!

**FreesiaE** · 06-06-2008, 09:37 AM

My thought is if we go to socialized health care I will be saving cash for my own "insurance". We already have docs here that don't take insurance and offer great customer service, lots of one on one time etc. for cash payments. I think the best and brighest will go to the private sect. If something really goes bad, I'd rather have the best and brightest.

**The Muse** · 06-06-2008, 09:40 AM

I don't want socialized healthcare. We're not a socialist country. HMOs have made enough of a mess of the healthcare system and I think socializing it will just make things worse.

**Ceashels** · 06-06-2008, 10:24 AM

I don't disagree with any of the above comments. We do however live in a time when Gov already has our money, is taking our money and is spending it poorly.

I think that the individual should be more responsible for themselves. This means education and making wise choices.

I don't have a problem with those who can afford better healthcare pay the extra for good service, quicker service. I would too. But not everyone can do that. I would definitely pay extra to get my hip replaced now instead of waiting 2 yrs when I can be scheduled in thru a socialized medicine program.

I like charities and I give when I can. But charities don't reach everywhere. The long arm of the gov does but unfortunately it doesn't have the skills or brainpower or competance to run a health care system.

I firmly believe that fed gov meddles too much in the lives of the individual and is way too big and powerful for its purpose.

I believe the idea of taking care of number one is crucial to all individuals. But not everybody is going to get there overnight. What would be better guidance into self sufficiency with a little bit of a support system or cutting out healthcare completely and risk upheaval and turmoil?

I don't think any system would ever be perfect, but wouldn't it be possible to try and take the best of the systems and expect reviews and modifications until we have less dependency on the taxation of everyone?

**Greebo** · 06-06-2008, 10:28 AM

One thing I want to be clear on - in no way am I advocating, "tear down the socialist programs today". We have spent 70+ years developing a tremendous dependency upon the Government, to our detriment. We now have an entire class of people who depend on Government for day to day living, be it housing, welfare, or social security.

If we destroyed that system overnight, there would be total chaos. It would mirror Russia in the 1900s with the fall of Serfdom, leaving millions of serfs without the basic knowledge of how to provide for themselves (which paved the way for an even worse system).

No - we need to stop the growth, and teach the right lessons, and only then can we gradually restore the system to one based on Individual liberty and responsibility, not one of "from each according to their ability".