We rented the movie 'Sicko' this weekend

[suki]

BTW, um... facts are not subjective. They can be proven. That would be what makes them facts.

Now I understand why I received so many pm's from folks expressing that they were afraid to speak out and stand up on this issue.

Kinda sad...

Have fun. I'm out.

[fuzzybunny]

I have never been to Netherlands or even out of the United States. I don't doubt that there are problems and benefits in each countries individual system, but I think (and this is a huge generalization) that when the subject of universal health care comes up many of us in the U.S. focus on the negatives of other systems and allow that to keep us from seeing to possibilities for our own country.

Will there be people who abuse the system? Yes and there will always be no matter what the system we choose. That is (fallen) human nature, but those people statistically speaking are small in number. (See the lecture by Harvard Professor Elizabeth Warren that I linked to in earlier post as well as her book "The Two Income Trap").

Everyone looses if we let a minority of dishonest people dictate the policies that affect the majority. The problem with our current system is not "freeloaders" upping the costs for every one. The problem is we have taken what is a basic human right and turned into a commercial venture. Insurance companies only make money if you buy their product and don't get sick. Since everyone gets sick this is not a tenable business model unless they can reject people's claims.

That is why there is such a huge amount of administration. Not because dishonest people make it necessary to weed out "cheaters" but because that monstrous bureaucracy still costs the insurance companies less than actually paying for people's health care. They are highly profitable businesses and if that "expensive Bureaucracy" were not turning a profit, trust me; the CEOs would loose no sleep about sacking each and every person if it meant bigger bonuses and a better bottom line. These companies are making billions of dollars by taking people's money and then denying them care.

I am sorry if I sound overly forceful but I have seen it over and over again in the hospital. Good, regular people who thought they were being responsible. Who thought they had enough insurance, enough savings, enough assets, except they didn't. And unless you have several million dollars worth of health insurance along with short term and long term disability and long term care insurance as well as accessible assets of around a half a million dollars or more you don't either. Catastrophic medical situations are exactly like hitting the lottery, just in reverse. Except here's the catch, in the medical lottery almost every single family will hit the "jackpot" at least once and what it takes to be prepared for that jackpot is out of the reach of the vast majority of Americans.

Health care is a basic human right. It is not someting people "deserve" or should have to prove their worthiness for via well paid employment. It is an expression of the first, most important basic human right. The right to live regarless of race, creed or income. What good is your freedom of speech if you are dead because a doctor got a bonus for denying your medical claim? What good is your right to educate your children as you see fit if they are dead because your new job's insurance policy wouldn't cover their "pre-existing" congenital heart defect?

We can exercise our inalienable rights only as long as we are alive and for now how long we live is determined by large corporations who make money by sucking every last penny they can get out of our citizens and then when we begin to cost more than we contribute keep the money they have made by denying us the care and medication that could keep us alive. Shame on all of us for allowing such a system to prosper. Shame on us as a nation for even entertaining the thought that some people "deserve" or have "earned" the right to medical care while others have not.

[PrairieRose]

You know I've not expressed my opinions on the main subject matter here b/c I haven't seen the movie that was referred to in the original post. I completely agree with the fact that we certainly do have problems with the present healthcare system. I don't confess to have any or all of the answers. I do know that I hope the solution will truly be a solution and not just another problem. I do like choosing my own dr.s and which hospital I will be treated in at present, even though we are self employed and have a high deductable HSA ($5400 per year per family), no copay (meaning it's totally out of pocket until we meet the deduct) and pay about $700/mo. for 2 people. Not sure what the solution is but I do hope the next round of elected officials have better solutions than the present ones do. And before anyone asks, yes I do vote. I hope you do too.

[Dad_of_4]

I was trying to avoid this discussion until I read the description of the military healthcare and I would like to correct a few things in DADOF4's post.

1. First off the military health insurance is not called CHAMPUS and has not been for over a decade. Its called TRICARE and is run by HUMANA. It is based on the MEDICARE model.
2. There are a couple of choices you can use if your military. If you live within a 50 mile radius of a military instalation with a hospital on it then you can use TRICARE PRIME. You go strictly thru the military and recieve your care there. Sometimes good and sometimes bad.
3. If you live near an instalation with a hospital and CHOOSE NOT to use it then you have TRICARE STANDARD. This is a typical HMO. You go to private docs ( if you can find one to take the ins, which alot will not) you have a deductable and a catastrophic cap. You get bills just like everyone else.
4. If you live near an instalation that DOES NOT have a hospital, only a Troop Medical CLinic then you must go to private docs. This is called TRICARE PRIME REMOTE. This is what we have now as our post only has a clinic and families can not use the clinic. To me this is the best option in the military. My kids and I go to private docs, and hospitals where the care is just so much better and we have never seen a bill in the entire time that we have lived here.
We have used it all depending on where we have been stationed and I much prefer to go to private docs etc. Dh has to go thru the military docs as he is in the army but please know that just because he does not pay for his health ins does not mean he is getting the best care there is or that he and every soldier deserves

I got out in 2000. So, i'm glad the system has improved. Even with my wife giving birth in a military hospital we got a bill for $40.

[Michelle68]

I have never been to Netherlands or even out of the United States. I don't doubt that there are problems and benefits in each countries individual system, but I think (and this is a huge generalization) that when the subject of universal health care comes up many of us in the U.S. focus on the negatives of other systems and allow that to keep us from seeing to possibilities for our own country.

Will there be people who abuse the system? Yes and there will always be no matter what the system we choose. That is (fallen) human nature, but those people statistically speaking are small in number. (See the lecture by Harvard Professor Elizabeth Warren that I linked to in earlier post as well as her book "The Two Income Trap").

Everyone looses if we let a minority of dishonest people dictate the policies that affect the majority. The problem with our current system is not "freeloaders" upping the costs for every one. The problem is we have taken what is a basic human right and turned into a commercial venture. Insurance companies only make money if you buy their product and don't get sick. Since everyone gets sick this is not a tenable business model unless they can reject people's claims.

That is why there is such a huge amount of administration. Not because dishonest people make it necessary to weed out "cheaters" but because that monstrous bureaucracy still costs the insurance companies less than actually paying for people's health care. They are highly profitable businesses and if that "expensive Bureaucracy" were not turning a profit, trust me; the CEOs would loose no sleep about sacking each and every person if it meant bigger bonuses and a better bottom line. These companies are making billions of dollars by taking people's money and then denying them care.

I am sorry if I sound overly forceful but I have seen it over and over again in the hospital. Good, regular people who thought they were being responsible. Who thought they had enough insurance, enough savings, enough assets, except they didn't. And unless you have several million dollars worth of health insurance along with short term and long term disability and long term care insurance as well as accessible assets of around a half a million dollars or more you don't either. Catastrophic medical situations are exactly like hitting the lottery, just in reverse. Except here's the catch, in the medical lottery almost every single family will hit the "jackpot" at least once and what it takes to be prepared for that jackpot is out of the reach of the vast majority of Americans.

Health care is a basic human right. It is not someting people "deserve" or should have to prove their worthiness for via well paid employment. It is an expression of the first, most important basic human right. The right to live regarless of race, creed or income. What good is your freedom of speech if you are dead because a doctor got a bonus for denying your medical claim? What good is your right to educate your children as you see fit if they are dead because your new job's insurance policy wouldn't cover their "pre-existing" congenital heart defect?

We can exercise our inalienable rights only as long as we are alive and for now how long we live is determined by large corporations who make money by sucking every last penny they can get out of our citizens and then when we begin to cost more than we contribute keep the money they have made by denying us the care and medication that could keep us alive. Shame on all of us for allowing such a system to prosper. Shame on us as a nation for even entertaining the thought that some people "deserve" or have "earned" the right to medical care while others have not.

Excellent post, Fuzzybunny. Thank you.


--Michelle

[Dancing Lotus]

BTW, um... facts are not subjective. They can be proven. That would be what makes them facts.

Now I understand why I received so many pm's from folks expressing that they were afraid to speak out and stand up on this issue.

Kinda sad...

Have fun. I'm out.

And this is why I felt it was time to put it to rest!

[Dad_of_4]

Dad of 4,
Fuel prices have not gone up because of the war in Iraq. Oil prices have only recently begun to spike upwards (along with gold) due to panic in the marketplace due to failed economic policy in the US.

I agree there in panic, but much of it is unfounded. I work in the manufacturing of industrial motors and we can hardly keep up. Sales are booming. I have been working 6 days a week. The people on the floor can work as much overtime as they want. Most are making more than the Engineers. So if the economy is failing you might want to inform all these companies buying motors.

Peak oil is what we are up against now.
We (the US) have used more of the world's oil reserves than any other country since the 1930's. It would be great to pull out the majority of troops of Iraq which would stabilize the area, redirect funds to much needed areas (deteriorating infrastructure, health, agriculture, NOLA, environment etc.) AND allow ourselves to concentrate on getting out from under the tyranny of oil which we have brought upon ourselves. Alternative fuel sources and technologies have long been gathering dust sitting on the shelves of the oil and auto industries. The oil barons just want to make a buck of us while they drain the last drops.

You think the US pulling out of Iraq will stabilize the region? Look at what happened in Somalia after the UN pulled out. By the way, I was there. The UN is about worthless except if you count bashing Isreal for defending themselves.

Bush, Cheney and Rice have succeeded in only one area, creating a sense of panic in the Mid East since 2003. Instead of implementing a strategic tough diplomacy using direct engagement to state our principles and interests, using cooperative leverage through sanctions, harnessing the support of our friends and allies of the UN, Bush chose to go it alone to attack a country, alienating everyone in the process and creating the view of the US as a rogue nation by many leaders in the Mid East and around the world. In the process we have also lost our moral compass. Americans are better people than that and deserve better leadership from our government. It is up to us to make sure our government leaders understand this. Unfortunately, the corporations and lobbyists have many of our government leaders in their pockets and have only their own interests (read $$$) at heart instead of the good of the nation and the world as a whole. So we need to clean house and get new leaders. VOTE!

We need a fresh level of engagement on all levels - health, education, economics, fuel and energy, foreign policy, and preserving our environment for future generations if we are to regain and maintain our standing in the world.

I can agree with you that the current politicians are backwards on a lot of issues. However, I think they are doing too much already. The only answer they seem to have is throw money at problems. Why is it private schools care provide a much better education of thousands less. On economics, do you thing we would have as many foreclosures if the federal goverment had not given incentives to first time home buyers that were not able to buy otherwise? Fuel and energy, is over regulated. Due to the EPA rules and tree huggers, we have not strated drilling in ANWAR and no new refineries have been built in decades. Also, no new nuclear plants have been built in almost 40 years. Then there is the whole ethonol push. Look at what that has done to food prices. By the time the ethonol mandates fully take effect, almost 50% of our crops will be redirected to fuel production. Who ever came up with that bright idea? Yea, lets burn our food as fuel! Don't even get me started on the enviromental protection crap. In the 70's it was global cooling, then global warming, now they call it climate change because they have no clue on how to predict the weather.

The only way are foreign policy is lacking is because we have not followed through enough. We have let military policy be driven by politicians not by the troops on the ground. This has cost many soldiers their lives.

The bottom line for this particular thread is that one of the easiest changes to implement would be to provide adequate and preventative healthcare for all our people. We've got everything in place for it to happen. We just have to juggle the nation's budget sheets a little bit.

You know I might agree with Universal Health care, but only with several conditions. One, it is run completely by the states with NO federal involvement. The federal goverment disbands the department of education and return complete control to the local communities. The departments of labor, health and human services, housing and urban development, and energy all all disbanded. Also, the tax code would have to be rewritten and be no longer than 1000 pages (12 font, double spaced, single sided.) This would free up plenty of revenue for universal health care and shrik government.