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  1. #61
    Registered User sabrelvssammy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by annymoll View Post
    How do you form a community with those who have not planned? How do you share willingly with those who knock at the door intent to rob you of your food? I do not want those people in my community. I don't want them here now even before a collapse, I want them to leave me alone.The only community I am interested in are those who are doing the same thing I am now.Prepping and planning are an insurance policy.You may never need the payout but you will be thankful that you paid in when it comes time to pay out.You cannot benefit from a policy if you have not paid in.I would love to see the stockpiles and preps of those that plan on sharing with anyone. They must have amazing storehouses, enough to make Joseph look like a wanna be. I am working like a dog to build up just a six month supply for 13 people.How do you house those who show up with nothing, warm them, provide the water and supplies with no advance preparation in a society that my be totally off grid?You have no electricity, no running water, no plumbing, and no skills?It takes space, time, planning and thrift to prepare for this type of emergency. I cannot imagine feeding and providing for whoever shows up at the door on my time, my effort and my expense.It would be crushing and would not allow others the opportunity to do what they need to in order to be a contributing citizen of any community.
    I don't believe that there is not something that each person can contribute to a community. You say that people will come with no skills. I have to disagree. They may not come with cans of soup but everyone will have something to contribute no matter how minute it may seem at the moment.

    Not everyone is purposely not planning for a SHTF scenario. Unfortunately it is proven human nature for the majority of us not to plan ahead.. And while it may seem to piss off the rest of us that are planning ahead while they live a care-free lifestyle I don't believe their lack of ignorance (and yes, I do believe it to be ignorance - which is defined by the dictionary as 'lack of knowledge') to be a reason to allow someone to die on my doorstep when I could have helped them even if it meant that I ate a little less for dinner that night. Yes, my comfort will certainly be more compromised than had I not answered their knocks. Less food for my belly, faster consumption of stockpile, more waste to tend to...I will be living in unprecedented times so I will not be thinking "If only there were 5 people here, or 8 or 10" I will be thinking "What can we all do together to get thru and survive this mess with the least amount of carnage?"

    "You cannot benefit from a policy if you have not paid in"
    . What do you think happens each and every day here in our own country in the regards to the current Welfare System that we run on? I hate to tell you that you are giving to people each and every day that are giving nothing back to our communities. And I am reminded of it every time they come thru my line at the grocery store with their 6 bags of Doritos, cases of Cokes & the largest, juciest T-bone steaks that we had in the meat case that day and throw their food stamp card at me. (Yes, some of them even have the audacity to throw it at me instead of politely hand it to the cashier.)

    Does it piss me off? Damn right it does. But that is the governments fault that they have to do nothing to get those benefits. In my community, after SHTF- everyone will have a 'job'. Everyone will be a vital and working member of my community. If and only then, after I have taken them in they choose to take from the community more than they give will they be banished and I will feel none the less sorry for them.

    At least I will know that I tried. If they choose not to do the same - so be it.

  2. #62
    Registered User annymoll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabrelvssammy View Post
    I don't believe that there is not something that each person can contribute to a community. You say that people will come with no skills. I have to disagree. They may not come with cans of soup but everyone will have something to contribute no matter how minute it may seem at the moment.

    Not everyone is purposely not planning for a SHTF scenario. Unfortunately it is proven human nature for the majority of us not to plan ahead.. And while it may seem to piss off the rest of us that are planning ahead while they live a care-free lifestyle I don't believe their lack of ignorance (and yes, I do believe it to be ignorance - which is defined by the dictionary as 'lack of knowledge') to be a reason to allow someone to die on my doorstep when I could have helped them even if it meant that I ate a little less for dinner that night. Yes, my comfort will certainly be more compromised than had I not answered their knocks. Less food for my belly, faster consumption of stockpile, more waste to tend to...I will be living in unprecedented times so I will not be thinking "If only there were 5 people here, or 8 or 10" I will be thinking "What can we all do together to get thru and survive this mess with the least amount of carnage?"

    "You cannot benefit from a policy if you have not paid in"
    . What do you think happens each and every day here in our own country in the regards to the current Welfare System that we run on? I hate to tell you that you are giving to people each and every day that are giving nothing back to our communities. And I am reminded of it every time they come thru my line at the grocery store with their 6 bags of Doritos, cases of Cokes & the largest, juciest T-bone steaks that we had in the meat case that day and throw their food stamp card at me. (Yes, some of them even have the audacity to throw it at me instead of politely hand it to the cashier.)

    Does it piss me off? Damn right it does. But that is the governments fault that they have to do nothing to get those benefits. In my community, after SHTF- everyone will have a 'job'. Everyone will be a vital and working member of my community. If and only then, after I have taken them in they choose to take from the community more than they give will they be banished and I will feel none the less sorry for them.

    At least I will know that I tried. If they choose not to do the same - so be it.
    So it will be your community? Your rules? By what authority, if all are pitching in and contributing?Maybe you will be replaced as leader.I understand the welfare system today. Workfare takes time to be established by a governing body and I certainly think it will be difficult to establish in a crisis.It doesn't seem to be progressing much at present.However, I feel better knowing that even in a total collapse there will be those walk in missions for the needy.God Bless Um.I hope your system works. It would make things more pleasant.

  3. #63
    Registered User sabrelvssammy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by annymoll View Post
    So it will be your community? Your rules? By what authority, if all are pitching in and contributing?Maybe you will be replaced as leader.I understand the welfare system today. Workfare takes time to be established by a governing body and I certainly think it will be difficult to establish in a crisis.It doesn't seem to be progressing much at present.However, I feel better knowing that even in a total collapse there will be those walk in missions for the needy.God Bless Um.I hope your system works. It would make things more pleasant.
    It will be my community only in the regards that I belong to it. My is a relative term as in 'this is my neighborhood, or my town' - I don't own it. I just live within it so I refer to it as mine. It will not be a dictatorship and I will not even pretend to be the boss. It will however be MY house (if that is where we are able to set up our community) but I will never spend my time reminding others of that.

    I work very well in a democratic society so everything will be discussed & voted on if need be. Everyone will bring out their strengths & weaknesses and we will work from that.

    I realize that there will be very few days of rainbows and sunshine. Probably none to be exact but I do believe that the family members that I know will be there all share in the same work ethic that I do (even though they are not planners by any nature). Things will get done and we will all go down trying.

    While it would be wonderful to imagine that the missions can continue on during a SHTF crises I seriously doubt if any will be able to remain open. The missions would have no way to protect their own supplies and would be quickly robbed by the masses of anything they could offer.

    If total collapse of our society does occur it truly will be every man (or community) for themselves.

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  5. #64
    Registered User annymoll's Avatar
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    In a collapse I believe it will be very deep and there will be no democratic society.Not everyone will want to vote on issues or defer to a democratic vote, so to me it would be an assumption that a community thrown together would be that organized from the get go.The initial chaos may last for a very extended period, so I personally feel that if you are planning a community of like minded individuals you should begin now instead of thinking you will have an organized form of government in a societal collapse. The best indicator of future behavior is past behavior.If you have always been a lazy bum chances are you always will be. If you are a cheat or a thief and I have to sum up your future behavior in a flash I can only go by your past behavior.If you have never been a contributing member of society I can only assume that you never will be if I have to make a quick judgement. It is always interesting to see how others will view a societal or economic collapse. It sharpens my perspective and gives me a contrasting viewpoint, even if it does not change my opinion.

  6. #65
    Registered User annymoll's Avatar
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    Here's a packet of Ramen Noodles Russ so you won't banish me if I am getting off subject.( My BIL called then" Roman Noodles" the other day. I think that makes simple dining sound more elegant. Here are your Roman Noodles my good fellow.)

  7. #66
    Registered User greekislandgirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Fixit View Post
    One thing you all need to think about , is that if you dont have a gun, you are vulnerable, and will probably be one of the few that doesn't have one. I have heard other members say that they do not have a gun in their household. Big mistake, really big mistake!
    Folks, at least get a Ruger 10/22 .22 rifle and 5000 rounds of ammo. It would only cost around $400, and at least you could somewhat protect yourselves. And learn how to shoot it for christs sake.
    Was this directed at me? We live in a country where guns are outlawed. It is not possible to buy a handgun here.

    For those who want to know what happens in an economic collapse, I'm living in one right now. In this country, we have 21% official unemployment, 51% unemployment for those under 25, and only around 40% of the total population is employed; of those who are employed, a HUGE percentage are not paid on time, regularly, in full, or at all. Inflation is around 7%/month not counting food; on food it is closer to 20%. Gasoline costs over $10/gallon because of taxes. The government is considered illegitimate by over 90% of the citizens based on most recent polls. The prime minister (prime minister here is like US president) was NOT elected to any office ever in his life - he was just appointed. There are a ton of new taxes that never existed before, and all tax writeoffs (standard deduction, dependent children) are being cancelled for this tax year. My husband is a schoolteacher - aside from the fact that his pay was cut by 60%, he has students pass out from hunger in class. Suicide is up by 40% and homelessness is up by 25%. Supermarket shelves are often empty. The price of eggs has gone up 41% in just a few months and they are almost impossible to find in stores. A quarter of small and medium businesses have gone out of business in the last 2 years and more are expected to close this year. Major multinational corporations have closed up shop here and withdrawn. Schools have no textbooks, no paper for photocopies, and often no heat in winter. Schools do not serve ANY meals to ANY children for ANY reason.

    It has taken about 2 years to reach this point and we still have much further to fall. So for those curious about timelines: governments and financial institutions will TRY really hard to stop an economic collapse. They will do everything they can to buy time. THERE WILL be time to prepare. You in the US are NOT in an economic crisis. The crisis in Greece is worse than the Great Depression was here but not as bad as the German Occupation during WW2. There are still plenty of rich people. In an economic collapse, many (not all) rich people will become much richer. Most people, 2 years in, are still able to feed themselves and keep a roof over their heads. There is NO violence although thefts are up - in the largest city in Greece, Athens, which has a population of 5 million, there are 15 thefts/break-ins per day - that is WAY up from before the crisis but it is not SHTF-fantasy 'critical level.'

    Things will get worse but my point is that in the 2 years since the crisis hit, day-to-day life is basically the same. Everything is more expensive, and everyone has much less money, but that just means that we're eating lentils instead of chicken.

    The bank run and financial sector collapse that SHTF types fantasize about? That will happen several YEARS after the economy tanks. That's what happened in Argentina, that's what will happen in Greece. If your economy collapses, you'll have time to get nice and poor first.

    I hope this is on topic...

  8. #67
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    Don't know if it was directed at you GIG. There are numerous people here in the US that think that any gun is dangerous and wrong to own. Which is silly because it's only a tool. They have this idea that anyone who owns a gun is just going to go off one day and kill everyone they see. *snickers*. They're been fed that lie for so long and in every conceivable way that it's ingrained in their minds so they can't see any other way.

    It just makes sense to be able to protect yourself. I'm partial to my crossbow. It'll go right thru ya if I'm close enough. And it's more quiet than a gun and just as deadly. Sure I have to get a little closer to my "target", but hey, thats the price you pay for stealth lol

    So, since I can kill with it and it's a weapon, I wonder if it should be banned too like all guns that the anti-gun folks want? hmm.... if so then we'll have to get rid of shovels, cuz you know you can kill somebody with one. OH! and let's not forget knives! Good grief, we need to ban those things. Deadly! Then, theres rocks, axes, ax handles ( one that was used to kill my daughter),fire place pokers, geesh. The list will get pretty long huh? lol


    It's going to be a fact that you'll have to protect yourself. How you do it will be up to you.

    And these "communities" will need security. Who's going to do it? And will the people who are against guns of any sort allow others to protect them with guns? Will they find it ok for others to die for them but yet they look down on them for owning and using a gun?

    Should make people think just what they are willing to do and what they're willing to allow others to do for them.

  9. #68
    Registered User Mr Fixit's Avatar
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    Well to me the key is living in the country, the people around us for 5 miles any direction are all farmers, preppers, and they all own guns. In the summer on weekends it sounds like a war around here because everybody is target practicing. We all think alike, and are willing to stick up for each other.
    It wouldn't take 2 weeks to organize these people into a 5 square mile area of defense and bartering community.
    Living in the country is a huge advantage over living in the city, so if you can, move out of the city as soon as you can.
    I know everybody cant do that, but beleive me, it's the place to be!
    The cities is where the chaos will begin, and it will be hard to escape when it does.

  10. #69
    Registered User greekislandgirl's Avatar
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    Yeah I don't know either, but maybe since I said "we don't do weapons" up above. I agree that a gun is a tool. I've said before and I believe that a heavily armed population ups the ante on violence. In Greece where guns are illegal you never hear about people being shot but you do hear about other crimes. There will always be people willing to kill other people and they will always find ways to do it.

    I'm so sorry to read that you lost your daughter, and in such a terrible way. My sister was murdered for no reason and it is a horrific thing for a family to go through. I wish that no mother had to lose a child to violence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Fixit View Post
    Living in the country is a huge advantage over living in the city, so if you can, move out of the city as soon as you can.
    I know everybody cant do that, but beleive me, it's the place to be!
    The cities is where the chaos will begin, and it will be hard to escape when it does.
    That's certainly the prevailing view by American preppers; in Argentina it seems the opposite was the case. The only jobs were in the cities and the countryside became hunting grounds for looters and the isolated farmers were sitting ducks. There are plusses and minuses to everything. We moved from one of the most isolated places in Greece to a small city. The fact was that if one of us had gotten sick out there, we wouldn't have survived. No hospital, and no money to send a helicopter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by greekislandgirl View Post
    Yeah I don't know either, but maybe since I said "we don't do weapons" up above. I agree that a gun is a tool. I've said before and I believe that a heavily armed population ups the ante on violence. In Greece where guns are illegal you never hear about people being shot but you do hear about other crimes.
    Per Freakonomics:

    In the UK, where guns are limited, there is more violent crime per capita than in the US, where guns are prevalent.

    In Switzerland, guns are mandatory, and yet violent crime is near nil overall.

    Statistically, there is no linkable correlation between widespread gun ownership and violence.

    IMO: Violence is more cultural than anything. Guns only affect the outcome.

  13. #72
    Registered User Mr Fixit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greekislandgirl View Post
    That's certainly the prevailing view by American preppers; in Argentina it seems the opposite was the case. The only jobs were in the cities and the countryside became hunting grounds for looters and the isolated farmers were sitting ducks. There are plusses and minuses to everything. We moved from one of the most isolated places in Greece to a small city. The fact was that if one of us had gotten sick out there, we wouldn't have survived. No hospital, and no money to send a helicopter.
    Well Islandgirl. In Argentina those people were probably too poor to own guns, and were a lot more seperated than we are here. I am not out in the wilderness, I am in a farming community and there are houses every 1/4 mile on both sides of the road. But we are still 15 miles away from town.
    We are definately not sitting ducks.
    But yeah I know some preppers that think they need to be as far from civilization as possible, but most of them are armed to the hilt with huge stores of food. They would be tough sitting ducks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sabrelvssammy View Post
    As for the worst case long term SHTF - you won't be out there tending to your flocks or watering your flourishing gardens. There will be none of that. You will be eating possibly cold food (and no, not from the refrigerator- uncooked) by candle or lamp light every night. You will burying your waste (as in there is no running water in your home- no toilets) in your yard and you will spend the rest of the time taking turns protecting what little you have left all the while praying for this nightmare to end.
    Well, that depends! If you have a wood cook stove, you don't have to eat cold, uncooked food. If you have a septic system and gravity water, you can use your bathroom toilet.

    I can't help but think that if just one person had carried a gun when that horrible shooting happened in Norway (wasn't it?) all those deaths could have been prevented. As it was, they had no defense when the man opened fire on the group.

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    Registered User Mr Fixit's Avatar
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    Daylilly guns equal the odds and that is for sure. The way this world is getting, every family should have one, and I totally beleive that!

  16. #75
    Registered User annymoll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thefrug View Post
    Don't know if it was directed at you GIG. There are numerous people here in the US that think that any gun is dangerous and wrong to own. Which is silly because it's only a tool. They have this idea that anyone who owns a gun is just going to go off one day and kill everyone they see. *snickers*. They're been fed that lie for so long and in every conceivable way that it's ingrained in their minds so they can't see any other way.

    It just makes sense to be able to protect yourself. I'm partial to my crossbow. It'll go right thru ya if I'm close enough. And it's more quiet than a gun and just as deadly. Sure I have to get a little closer to my "target", but hey, thats the price you pay for stealth lol

    So, since I can kill with it and it's a weapon, I wonder if it should be banned too like all guns that the anti-gun folks want? hmm.... if so then we'll have to get rid of shovels, cuz you know you can kill somebody with one. OH! and let's not forget knives! Good grief, we need to ban those things. Deadly! Then, theres rocks, axes, ax handles ( one that was used to kill my daughter),fire place pokers, geesh. The list will get pretty long huh? lol


    It's going to be a fact that you'll have to protect yourself. How you do it will be up to you.

    And these "communities" will need security. Who's going to do it? And will the people who are against guns of any sort allow others to protect them with guns? Will they find it ok for others to die for them but yet they look down on them for owning and using a gun?

    Should make people think just what they are willing to do and what they're willing to allow others to do for them.
    My husband bought a cross bow recently and they are amazing.I have a harder time with a compound bow. At the same time he bought me a wrist rocket and I try to practice every day.Even a small rock can become a weapon.We are in a very rural area and our neighbors do the same.I don't know anyone in our community who does not own a gun( most own many, many) for hunting and protection.

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