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3K views 30 replies 11 participants last post by  nodmicks 
#1 ·
We recently (2.5 weeks ago) adopted a 7 year old collie named Zeke. He was a stud at a breeding facility. He was not abused or neglected - he just was not a family pet. He is an as-of-yet unneutered male. His temperament is sweet, timid and not too bright.

We also have a nearly 11 year old mini schnauzer, Katie. She has been with us for just over 2 years. She was terribly neglected before we got her. She's extremely sweet and mellow and completely glued to my side.

A couple of times in the past week, Zeke has been sound asleep on his blanket, Katie wanders past and he get up and growls and snaps at her. It's alarming because there is a big shuffle of paws and claws on the hardwood and all the barking.

Tonight, Katie came back from the kitchen where she was getting a drink of water. Zeke leapt off the bed he was laying on and growled and snapped, this time making enough contact that Katie yelped. I interceded immediately, scolding Zeke and getting between them. He layed down submissively as soon as I yelled at him. I checked Katie and there are no visible wounds. She's still shaking though. :(

For those of you with multiple dogs, is this a hopeless situation? The breeder who had Zeke has said if things don't work out she would like to have him back instead of us finding him another home. I really don't want to give up too early but I'd hate to have this escalate to the point where someone gets hurt. When we are not here, the dogs are kenneled so there is always someone around to supervise when they are together. I also take them to the dog park nearly every night. My oldest DD wondered if Zeke might think he was playing with Katie because of how the dog park dogs rough-house, but this looks different to me.

Advice welcome!!!
 
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#2 ·
I would say,w/o being there to observe,Zeke is establishing dominance. He needs a snip asap. And you have to establish leader.(of the pack). You walk ahead he doesn't lead. You eat then put the food down for him. If you give part of your food eat all yours first. Say each ones name as you give the treats. Give katies first.
Submit is a very imp. command. You roll him and put your body over him. I have taught my DD's dog "time out". She will take herself in the other room.
Watch feeding time. They both need seperate bowls. there is no equality in the dog world. Someone is at the bottom.
 
#3 ·
Frugalwarrior, I wondered if it was a dominance thing. I do feed them seperately and he is a complete gentleman on the leash (aside from his panic when a car goes by). Part of the deal I had made with the person I adopted him from was to keep him intact until we decided that things would work out here. Do you feel the neutering will settle down this behavior?

A couple of other things: Katie, being a little 20 pound dog, is allowed to sit on the couch - Zeke, being 75 pounds, is not. Do dogs get jealous of this type of thing? My kids swear that I'm "hurting Zeke's feelings" because of this. He's a big chicken about lots of things. He is scared of: the cat, thunder, cars - both driving and parked, rakes, bicycles....anything outside of his experience. He initially wouldn't even go in the car without my daughter pulling him in and me shoving him from behind. We've cured that by starting every car trip with a romp in the park for a few minutes - now he is thrilled to jump right in.

He was not a family pet before so a lot of things are new to him. The snapping at Katie is the only BAD behavior, although he does pace a lot and is quite restless - he isn't good at just sitting and cuddling - takes him a while to settle.

Thanks! (I seem to have written another novel!)
 
#4 ·
Yes, what FW said. You do not need to worry about hurting his feelings, this is about pecking order. The next time he does this put him in his kennel and put a blanket over the kennel so he can't see you. Do not make eye contact with him until you are ready to take him out. (doggy time out. And make each infraction a longer banishment) Banishing is very common in packs to learn the pecking order. So is who eats first. Your little one should eat first, then him. Your little one enters the door first, then him. (of course your first in front of them) And don't change that behavior or he will see it as the pecking order has changed. It will take awhile but he'll get it as long as he has no doubt in his mind that she's top dog, and any bad behavior towards her will not be tolerated. Be patient, but keep a watchful eye on your little one. For now.
 
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#6 ·
You can't choose their pecking order. You can set boundaries as to their behavior but they will decide who is top dog. YOU have to be top dog above all of them. Until this is established, no sofas, no beds, nothing until they understand you are boss. This goes for both of them. They first need to learn who's in charge and that it's you.

If you baby the other dog (smaller dog) it will just make things worse. Don't accept bad behavior (watch for any signs such as hair-on-back raising, dirty looks) but don't try to "make" one dog higher than the other.
Dog Community, Dog Pictures, Dog Forum & Information ? Dog.community This site has TONS of info on multiple dogs.

You are doing a great job keeping them in their crates while gone, Way to Go!! You may not have to do this forever, but definitely during this adjustment period.

p.s I would suggest getting him fixed but I believe in doing that for all dogs/cats even if never plan to breed, even if never plan to have a second dog in the family, etc. I'm just a big advocate of the procedure.
 
#8 ·
Polly has a good idea w/ the removal (like time out). Later down the road turn your back on the offender w/ obvious flair after making eye contact. Cross your arms and kinda look up at the sky. This will only work after you are pack leader. I have 2 sheperds (girls no less) and when they start 1 goes on the time out and the other gets the ignore. The ignore will try and make eye contact and i keep circling away w/ a "go laydown" sharp comment.

Now realize you will have tussles. You will have to keep reestablishing whose boss. Just part of pack mentality. They were wolves at one time ya know.
My G. sheperd will butt my hand and keep flipping it until I pet her,cute right-nope. Dominance. I decide when I pet her. Gotta watch because they can sneak in there.
Their a trip but I love havin' them. All 3.
Oh and in case your wondering I did dog rescue w/ power dogs. (pits,husky,sheperds,dobies,and whatever else she dragged out of the pound that week.).
 
#9 · (Edited)
I did rescue too FW! Fostered quite a few in my time, mostly abused pit bulls. I had to determine the pecking order or all hell would have broken loose. I ruled with a firm hand (but gentle) and they had and they had no doubt how things were going to go as far as order. At one time we had 5 dogs, 4 of them abused or neglected pits. I worked very closely following the guidelines of the rescue organization and found their methods were not only effective but provided peace rather quickly among the pack.

That said, you must do what establishes peace in your household in whatever way is best for your pups. If allowing them to determine pecking order is the optimal way then that is what should been done.

Wishing you all the best Daisy.
 
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#10 ·
Good luck daisy.

Some great advice here.......very important to be consistent in what ever you do.

I have two.........have never had trouble to that extent but I kennel them whenever I leave and don't intent to change it EVER!! have always kenneled though.

Oh YEAH..............the snip will make all the difference in the world!! But it will take a few months for the hormones to settle down and for you to see the difference. I, too, totally agree with the procedure.......for every animal, if you are not going to breed. One BIG reason the shelters are so full........not done often enough.
 
#11 ·
Lots of wonderful advice here! Thanks -I will process this and work on the "pecking order." I hate to admit it but the real alpha here is the cat, Paul. :D
 
#12 ·
Daisy;
My ds's cat moved into my house quite a while ago with my golden retriever and shephard. They would wait in line for water. LOL

Please, please keep on top of this. My sil lost a dog because they both went for something at the same time. Total accident, but it happened.
 
#13 ·
I agree on the dominance/pecking order thing. When I go to visit my gf - before she got rid of her dog - I walked in and the dog got super excited and tried jumping up on me, as she did with the rest of the family. I swatted her down and firmly said NO each time she did it. She learned real quick that I wasn't going to tolerate it but yet she still jumps all over the family members. Its all about setting boundaries. Be consistent and good luck! :)
 
#14 ·
The cat! Oh no. We joke about our wild cat we took in. She set my 120# sheperd straight. She wouldn't be nosed or you got "the Paw". Wap,wap,wap,. Ninja cat.

I had to laugh tonight. I was eating a pasty and the 2 girls started complainy growls back and forth. I unconsiously put my hands up to my head. DD's dog got up and put herself on time out w/o a word or look from me.
Good luck w/ your new friend. Remember everything takes time.
 
#15 ·
A very scary incident this evening: Zeke attacked Katie while she was eating and had her on her back in seconds. I immediately grabbed him by the scruff and put him in his crate with the blanket over it.

Katie is not hurt but she was very frightened. I'm starting to doubt we can work this out.:(
 
#16 · (Edited)
Honey they should not have food unless crated. (locked in their own crate for dinner time) No bones, no treats, no dog food in the rest of the house if they are already having issues in other areas. Also, don't let them go into each other's crates after they eat to investigate if the other one left food, that can lead to a fight as well.

Just a tip. Here is some good information on preventing dog fights: http://www.paw-rescue.org/PAW/PETTIPS/DogTip_FightsBetweenDogs.php
 
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#18 ·
Something doesn't sound right if the person stated that if things did not work out to bring the dog back and that until then not to neuter him. Sounds more as if she knew the dog was not well socialized and problems were inevitable.

Also second that the dog should be neutered. If the woman still wanted to use him as a stud then she would have kept him for that. Apparently she is willing to let him go. Something just does not sound right about that.
 
#19 ·
Now we have growling...... I followed the advice here and locked them away seperately for eating - there is absolutely nothing for them to fight over. Zeke didn't jump on Katie again but he growls at her when she walks by.

I emailed the previous owner. She said he had never acted like this with a female before - only with males. She immediately offered to come and pick him up.

I really don't know what to do. I don't want to be one of those pet owners that disposes of dogs, but I also don't want Katie to be hurt. She is nearly 11 years old and so gentle - she also had a horribly neglected and abused life before she came to us.
 
#20 ·
I also wanted to add that Zeke is getting plenty of exercise - we walk him about a mile a day and let him run around at the dog park for about an hour. He is fine and somewhat submissive with the dogs there.
 
#22 ·
I will be bold here and say that personally, DaisyGirl, I think your family has gone through enough recently without having to be subjected to dog fight crap too. Really, it isn't easy to play crate and rotate for days, weeks, months, years. Some dogs simply won't get along. These aren't dogs that you raised from puppies and have suddenly turned on each other. You have no way of knowing their complete history. I would suggest returning Zeke, do not get another dog, and simply give Katie all your love until her end.
 
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#23 ·
Yeah. I am thinking this is going to end badly. If the owner will place him again I would let her.
He needs to be the only dog. Don't be offended but some dogs require super experienced people to halt their "stuff".
I have 1 like that. We have trained and trained. It is constant work. If it weren't for her bond w/ DD I would have ended her long ago. I know "gasp" but understand the rescue was going to. She was very damaged. Afraid of men,never been in a house,barked at everything,needed clonacalm (doggie downers). She panted and paced until she just about passed out. Thunderstorm OMGoodness. But I love DD.
And i have had dogs all my life and worked for several rescues. So=difference. I am willing to compromise my life. Most others aren't that nuts. there are plenty of dogs out there,plenty. I agree Katie doesn't need this. The reason it works here is the other G. sheperd will tolerate only so much and then grab her scruff and pin her w/ a GRUMMPH noise,not hurting her just sayin" ENOUGH!. Which I allow. Katie sounds too passive to combat. So this dog will more forward dominating more and more. My guess is a collie mix right. Not just collie.
Sorry. Obviously,just my opinion. But it would stay inside my head.lol
 
#24 ·
I think you guys are right. Zeke is a purebred - smooth collie. I just think his life not being socialized isn't going to allow him to integrate any further with us. I agree he needs to be an "only". Katie always gets along with other dogs - I was really surprised that this happened after we had Zeke for nearly 3 weeks. :( Maybe as he got more comfortable in his home here he decided he needed to rule the roost.

The former owner is totally willing to find another home for him - she agreed he would likely be best as an only. He was always the submissive one at her place but he was surrounded by other 70# plus dogs, not a wee little schnauzer. At least Katie will still get her socializtion at the doggie park and on her walks.

:( I feel like the world's worst pet owner right now.
 
#26 ·
No, your the world best,most responsible owner. You didn't insist on "curing" him when the situation in clearly not doable. And you didn't dump it at the pound and claim it was a stray,etc. Not all dogs can be saved. Secret-Even no kill rescues turn dogs that are too aggressive back into the pound to be euthanized. Some are just too damaged. Even for pros.

And for what its worth. I am so sorry. You tried. And there is a good home out there. We used to adopt dogs like this to single middle aged women w/ grown children. They bond w/o competition and life is good. Some dogs need to be out on big property. That's what DD's dog needs. Situation is everything. Hugs.
 
#27 ·
Apparently, your cat Paul knew what was what!!! I would not feel badly. It really does sound like the owner was not as upfront as she should have been!!! Really does sound as if the dog should be an only dog. If he goes after your dog he may go after another dog, animal, or child. Unless you have the time to completely retrain this dog then you should give him back with a complete refund to you.
 
#28 ·
Thanks for the input, folks. :( We met Zeke's former owner and he seemed really happy to see her. DD10 cried but understood totally why we gave him back. DD15 was pretty sad about it too. They sure didn't need any extra tears.

He's a sweet dog - I miss him but I don't miss the stress of worrying he will hurt Katie. She seems pretty happy being a lone lapdog.
 
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