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Discussion Starter #1
After reading much of the information about pressurize canning fruits and vegetables, my conclusion is the information is more scare tactics than useful particularly about botulism. Raising the temperature of the material to 121°C (250°F) for about five minutes kills all bacteria. The problem is measuring this temperature. The solution is to use this marvelous relatively cheap device to ascertain that the necessary temperature is reached.
Sterilization Indicators : DIACK Steam Cycle Sterilization Monitors DIACK Steam Cycle Sterilization Monitors 1251J05 121°C (250°F) Cost about 30 cents each.
When in doubt insert the monitor into a jar and check. To cover most situations, I pressure can my material at 15 PSI for 15 minutes.
 

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Not that I expect you to come back and answer any questions, but why do you think the information is primarily scare tactics? All of the guides I have read say to can at roughly the same you state, 15 for 15 (for fruits), in order to kill botulism. Nothing has come across as scary, just something to be aware of in order to can properly.

Also, are you suggesting I open up one of my recently canned jars to put in one of those devices? After my pressure cooker has cooled down to the point where I can even get the jars out?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Not that I expect you to come back and answer any questions, but why do you think the information is primarily scare tactics? All of the guides I have read say to can at roughly the same you state, 15 for 15 (for fruits), in order to kill botulism. Nothing has come across as scary, just something to be aware of in order to can properly.

Also, are you suggesting I open up one of my recently canned jars to put in one of those devices? After my pressure cooker has cooled down to the point where I can even get the jars out?
The pundits spend much time babbling about different pressures and times for different products.What I am suggesting is there must be some safe temperature and time. My criteria is reaching 240F/120C and maintaining for at least five minutes. I have chosen 15 PSI and time for 15 minutes. So I have some margin of safety. It may be over-cooking, but personal experience indicates for me that it is safe. This criteria with regards to temperature can be ascertained by simply placing a temperature sensing capsule in the jar, then pressure can for the selected time. Certainly this will verify my assumptions which I consider absolutely safe.
 

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Why not just go by what is tested to be safe? Personally, I only use tested recipes and follow to the T. I know a lot of older ladies who "do their own thing" when it comes to canning because that is "what they have always done and it hasn't killed them yet". After recently talking to someone at an extension office I found out that because they are modifying our vegetables there are new requirements for safely canning. An example is tomatoes are now lower in acid. I am not trying to start an argument. It does however scare me when people come up with their own criteria and assumptions then publish it. I guess I am responding to this because I want to caution anyone who is a beginner in canning to do their own research. When in doubt you can always call your local extension office.
 

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Well, Durgan appears to be overshooting the requirements, which I don't see a problem with. I believe he typically only cans his juices or smoothies or whatever it is, so this is what he has settled on as being all encompassing for his needs. For other canning, including meats and the like, there are different requirements than fruits and veggies. Those recipes, as I understand it, are to be cooked for the duration and pressure of the longest item. Meaning, at my altitude, 15lbs for 70min for anything including meat in a quart jar. My chili is cooked at 15lbs for 70min because of the beef. This removes the necessity to follow a recipe perfectly and being concerned about acidity.

In that case, I agree with Durgan. However, I don't agree with him blankly stating that 15lbs for 15min is good enough for all canning, unless he only means that for his needs that's good enough. Following the canning instructions for the ingredient that requires the longest amount of cooking time should render the rest of the ingredients safe as well. I've come to this conclusion by reading various canning books, websites, and extension office literature, not by "personal findings".
 

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I thought it was for 90 minutes for quarts of chili with beef........
This is from the Montana Extension Office. The chart is on page 3. I'm not saying your wrong but what you are doing is different that I was taught/learned. Better to double check now and to be safe than sorry later on.
http://store.msuextension.org/publications/HomeHealthandFamily/MT200905HR.pdf
I always thought this also.
Can for the ingrediant that takes the longest time.
So the meat requires 90 minutes for quarts at 15 psi.
 
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At the pressure canning class I took through the local extension office a few years ago the question came up about canning for the ingredient that takes the longest time. We all thought that was the way it was done too. The teacher answered that "No it is not safe and you need to follow a tested recipe"......she says just because people have always done it doesn't make it safe. So this is what I have been going by.....now I am wondering though?
 

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Durgan, are you suggesting that you'll insert these sterilization indicators in each jar then process your food and when you're done you'll remove the sterilization indicators to check that each jar properly reached temperature? I contend that just asking the question may lead you to realize the fallacy of your theory.

And there are many other food-borne pathogens to cause concern. Botulism is a common concern because it grows in a vacuum (airless environment). And it isn't the bacteria itself that is the concern, it is the toxin produced by the bacteria that causes the damage. While the toxin can be destroyed with a long cooking time, the spores still survive and can grow again to toxic levels while in the human body.

Other food-borne pathogens that are cause for concern include listeria, campylobactor, salmonella, e-coli, staph, strep, enterovirus, norovirus, rotovirus, parasites and their "eggs" like giardia.

When you are using a .edu tested recipe, keep in mind they have thoroughly tested the recipe and the results with better equipment than we can hope to have at home.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I am suggesting that all bacteria and toxins are destroyed at 240F for about five minutes.

At issue is the ability to obtain this situation for all the ingredients in a jar. That is all the testers are trying to achieve. Their solution is to zap for a long time and hope for the best by not finding any harmful pathogens after pressure cooking.

At home it is not possible to measure for pathogens so we achieve safety by indirect means. Namely, pressure and time.

The temperature indicators are simply an aid in achieving 240F. They are probably used as spot checks, particularly with produce one considers as a possible supporter of pathogens.



In my case "juicing" I have found no evidence of pathogens.
Preserves to date 2014
25 August 2014 Tomato Cucumber Juice 25 August 2014 Tomato Cucumber Juice
24 August 2014 Tomato Juice. 24 August 2014 Tomato Juice
19 August 2014 Cucumber Juice 19 August 2014 Cucumber Juice.
17 August 2014 Tomato Juice. 17 August 2014 Tomato Juice
15 August 2014 Beans Cucumber Juice 15 August 2014 Beans Cucumber Juice
12 August 2014 Sugar Beet Fruit Leather 12 August 2014 Sugar Beet Fruit Leather
10 August 2014 Vegetable Juice 10 August 2014 Vegetable Juice
6 August 2014 Cucumber Tomato Juice 6 August 2014 Cucumber Tomato Juice
4 August 2014 Blueberry Juice 4 August 2014 Blueberry Juice
4 August 2014 Cherry Juice. 5 August 2014 Cherry Juice
2 August 2014 Vegetable Juice 2 August 2014 Vegetable Juice
31 July 2014 Corn Preservation 31 July 2014 Corn Preservation
30 July 2014 Blueberry Juice 30 July 2014 Blueberry Juice
29 July 2014 Sweet Cherry Juicing. 29 July 2014 Sweet Cherry Juicing
28 July 2014 European Gooseberry Juicing 28 July 2014 European Gooseberry Juicing.
27 July 2014 Blueberry Juice 27 July 2014 Blueberry Juice
26 July 2014 Vegetable Juice 26 July 2014 Vegetable Juice
24 July 2014 Vegetable Juicing 24 July 2014 Vegetable Juicing
22 July 2014 Carrots processed for juice. 22 July 2014 Carrots processed for juice.
22 July 2014 American Gooseberry (Ribes hirtellum) Juicing 22 July 2014 American Gooseberry
21 July 2014 Black Currant. Processing for Juice. 21 July 2014 Black Currant.
15 July 2014 Black Currant Juice 15 July 2014 Black Currant Juice
15 July 2014 Cucumbers Juicing, 15 July 2014 Cucumbers Juicing
13 July 2014 Black Currants 13 July 2014 Black Currants
10 July 2014 Garden Vegetable Juicing 10 July 2014 Garden Vegetable Juicing
7 July 2014 Haskap Juice 7 July 2014 Haskap Juice
5 July 2014 Purslane Juicing. 5 July 2014 Purslane Juicing
1 July 2014 Garden Produce Juicing 1 July 2014 Garden Produce Juicing
24 June 2014 Juicing Greens 24 June 2014 Juicing Greens
19 June 2014 Vegetable Juicing. 19 June 2014 Vegetable Juicing
4 June 2014 Juicing Current Garden Vegetables. 4 June 2014 Juicing Garden Vegetables
 

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I am suggesting that all bacteria and toxins are destroyed at 240F for about five minutes.

At issue is the ability to obtain this situation for all the ingredients in a jar. That is all the testers are trying to achieve.
I am suggesting that:
1) Home canners are trying to control for more than just bacteria. Bacteria is relatively easy to kill. Even some viruses are fragile. However, some are extremely hardy.
2) The sterilization sensors you've proposed can't tell you if you have reached the desired temperature at the interior of your jars or at the interior of of your food for the appropriate amount of time. Putting the sensor inside your jars is impractical and putting the sensor inside your canner will give you a false reading.

You seem ignorant of the amount of testing that the university extension services has conducted. You make it sound like they're "guessimating" at the processing times and temperatures.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I am suggesting that:
1) Home canners are trying to control for more than just bacteria. Bacteria is relatively easy to kill. Even some viruses are fragile. However, some are extremely hardy.
2) The sterilization sensors you've proposed can't tell you if you have reached the desired temperature at the interior of your jars or at the interior of of your food for the appropriate amount of time. Putting the sensor inside your jars is impractical and putting the sensor inside your canner will give you a false reading.

You seem ignorant of the amount of testing that the university extension services has conducted. You make it sound like they're "guessimating" at the processing times and temperatures.
You are repeating dogma that has already been adequately addressed.
 

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I thought it was for 90 minutes for quarts of chili with beef........

This is from the Montana Extension Office. The chart is on page 3. I'm not saying your wrong but what you are doing is different that I was taught/learned. Better to double check now and to be safe than sorry later on.

http://store.msuextension.org/publications/HomeHealthandFamily/MT200905HR.pdf
You're right. I was incorrect. I would edit my post, but it looks like there is time limit.

Evidenced by my still being healthy.
That's not really something I would trust. Just because you haven't had any obvious reaction, that doesn't mean you don't have any pathogens with your message.

You are repeating dogma that has already been adequately addressed.
You haven't answered the question that has been asked multiple times.

Seeing your replies in this thread tells me why you typically don't respond to threads, or really provide much to your original posts. You have nothing to back up your statements, despite several other people responding with information differing from yours, and avoid answering questions asked to you directly.
 

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If you are the only one eating your canned goods, do what you want. If you are sharing the products of your labor with family and friends, I suggest ignoring the advice of Durgan.

First off Durgan seems to be talking specifically about juices but uses the general term "pressure canning" as if 15 minutes is good time for any product. That Durgan is 'still healthy' is not the same as a safe method. Shall I can tuna at 15 pounds for 15 minutes when recipe calls for 10 pounds for 100 minutes (<1000' feet) ?? I think not!

Follow approved recipes found all over the internet. These recipes have been tested. Follow the recipe, the time, the pressure corrected for elevation, etc. I say follow proven recipes, not hearsay.
 

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If you are the only one eating your canned goods, do what you want. If you are sharing the products of your labor with family and friends, I suggest ignoring the advice of Durgan.
Follow approved recipes found all over the internet. These recipes have been tested. Follow the recipe, the time, the pressure corrected for elevation, etc. I say follow proven recipes, not hearsay.
Nicely put. Thank you.

Welcome to the site and please post more often :)
 
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